New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
mdp_LSB
Member
Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Pennsylvania
Pet name: Smokey
My name: Mary

Re: New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Post by mdp_LSB » 26 Aug 2020, 12:18

Posting another update on Smokey and seeking input on new questions ... "mr. puppy" is now 14 months so really less puppy, more rambunctious teen :-)
I took Smokey to a holistic vet for a nutritional consult with a goal of finding an appropriate combination of food/supplements that will keep him as healthy as possible and secondarily to see if we can wean him from the Tylosin. We are doing a 30-day food trial with Ultamino. He is also having a series of monthly aquapuncture with B-12 and is on a Chinese herb daily. She had me stop the Fortiflora. The stool has been pretty OK throughout, (a bit soft in spots, but nothing approaching diarrhea), but I really think the Tylosin is the primary factor in keeping the stool somewhat normalized. I think consistency was better on the Fortiflora than the herb, which I'll discuss at the next vet visit.
The current treatments are meant to help reduce inflammation in the gastrointestinal tract before we try any new foods & do anything to start a trial weaning period on the Tylosin.
At the vet's recommendation (and based on input from the forum ... TY!), we also did another GI Profile -- this time fasted and with the testing done at Texas A&M.
Results were:
Cobalamin 724
Folate 16.2
PLI less than 30
TLI 16.3
All of these results are within the normal range, although the vet seemed to think the TLI was a bit low.
The vet also recommended (1) we hold off a few months on neutering, which I am ok with doing, and to do a stomach biopsy when the neutering surgery is done, and (2) to consider titering for all vaccines at this point. I have mixed feelings on the latter and wonder what other experience forum members may have.
My gut feeling (no pun intended) at this point is that Tylosin is still the glue holding everything together. I'm not sure we're really making progress. but I know there's a lot of trial and error involved in finding the right combination. It feels quite discouraging at times. As always, I will greatly appreciate insights/experiences from forum members regarding the latest update. It's so helpful to know that we aren't taking this journey alone.

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2127
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Post by jilbert57 » 26 Aug 2020, 13:25

Good day. Sometimes an animal needs a maintenance dose of Tylan for life. Great thing with Tylan it only destroys the bad bacteria in the gut and leaves the good bacteria!

Haven't done titers but will in 3 years when Kiya will be 17☺

As far as Tli TAMU has this reference range:
Canine 5.7 – 45.2 µg/L
Feline 12.0 – 82.0 µg/L

So I would just keep an eye on that!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Post by Madelon » 27 Aug 2020, 13:55

Hi Mary!! First off I noticed the TLI has dropped from 17.9 to 16.3 - it may be that your dog is POSSIBLY, SLOWLY headed towards EPI.

Did you ever try the Slippery Elm bark powder? I know it's hard but try to only add or remove one thing at a time and wait about 2 weeks to see how the change affects your dog. I've made the mistake oh so many times (LOL) of changing more than one thing at a time and then not knowing what worked and what didn't and having to start all over again LOL.

My apologies because I have Covid brain and can't remember - are you using enzymes?

With regard to Tylan - I admit that although there are EPI dogs that require a lifetime maintenance dose of Tylan to keep the poop firm, I was not a fan of keeping my boy on an antibiotic, HOWEVER, after learning that Tylan does not kill bacteria in the gut the way most antibiotics do - it actually just prevents the bad bacteria from reproducing - and every time I tried to wean him off he is now on 1/8tsp 2x a day daily maintenance.

So, while you're using the Ultamino you might try removing the Chinese herb - wait two weeks and see if you notice any change - if not then you could eliminate that from your dog's medications/supplements. Then you could try adding the Slippery Elm bark powder - give it a week and even if there's no change, i.e., things don't get worse, then you could try and slowly wean off the Tylan but keep giving the Slippery Elm while weaning off the Tylan.

As for vaccinations - I'm not a fan except for the initial/booster that puppies need. I titer tested my dogs for their vaccines but my vet made me sign a waiver because I refused to give my EPI boy rabies vaccine because he always has a bad reaction to it. Just be sure to know the laws in your area. My vet gave me a lecture on the liability especially because he's a German Shepherd and is extremely dog reactive but because of that we don't take him anywhere - we have a fenced in yard and he is never even in the yard without someone watching him. You have to do what you think is best for you and your dog :)
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

mdp_LSB
Member
Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Pennsylvania
Pet name: Smokey
My name: Mary

Re: New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Post by mdp_LSB » 22 Sep 2020, 12:53

Hi Madelon,
Thanks for your helpful reply ... all appreciated!
I'm so sorry for the long lag between updates. I can rarely get to my computer other than for work, because Smokey keeps me constantly hopping and that's no exaggeration!
Smokey is not on enzymes. That is a question I had ... can a dog be on enzymes even if they're not diagnosed with EPI?
We will definitely work with our vet to keep an eye on the TLI levels. He's lost two pounds recently, so that's also a concern to me.
Right now, we're trying a four-month trial of acupuncture (aquapuncture with B12) and the Chinese herb. He's also still on the Ultamino food (nearly two months now). Will reassess progress with the vet after that. I'm surely still hoping to move away from prescription food.
We did start Slippery Elm once before doing any of this, but didn't have good results. I do have it in mind to give it another try.
In the meantime, we also had routine bloodwork done last week and it showed low total protein and globulin. The vet will discuss that with us on the next visit. Not sure what to make of that.
I did very reluctantly go ahead with the rabies vaccine and titered for everything else.
When we go ahead with neutering (hopefully by December!), the vet will do a stomach biopsy as well.
We just keep walking day by day ... hoping to find the right diagnosis & the right combination of things to keep Smokey healthy & happy.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1382
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New member with SID/SIBO puppy & questions!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 24 Sep 2020, 14:11

Hi there! I do not know the answer to your question about enzymes, but I thought I'd comment to bring the thread to a current date.---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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