Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Angboys3
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: Texas

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by Angboys3 » 01 Aug 2018, 10:35

I don’t have anything to add as we are new to this as well. I just gave my dog her first enzymes as well. She is also a very picky eater, a poodle. She likes the Stella and Chewy freeze dried patties. I crumble one on top with her kibble and she will usually eat.

Hope you are able to find a combo of food, enzymes and meds that work! I know how stressful it is to see your dog getting skinner. I am in that same boat right now. Got to have faith that something works.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by Olesia711 » 01 Aug 2018, 13:48

How is your pup dong today with her meals.... is she eating fine.... or is she avoiding her food???

Everyone gave you really good suggestions.... and jsut so you know..... in dealing with EPI.... there are suggested/recommended protocols/standards... and these suggestions "usually" work... but the reason why there are so many options is because not all EPI dogs respond accordingly- -so we have learned to offer multiple suggestions in hopes that you will find one that does work for your pup.

I do have a question for you..... you mentioned that your pup ate her meal fine with the enzymes... but it was afterwards that she did not want any of her "snacks". With EPI... you DO NOT want to give anything without enzymes. everything she eats needs to have enzymes. Every meal. In the beginning we strongly advise "no snacks/treats".... wait until she is stable ... which means delivering normal looking poo at a normal amount of times a day (eliminating anywhere between 1 to 3 times a day) :)

Also... if your pup does have an issue with the enzymes in the food.... we have a page on camouflaging enzymes - but as (i think it was Barb) so wisely mentioned... with IBD, you should only use those toppers that are acceptable with your pup. Anyway... here is the page on camouflaging enzymes: https://epi4dogs.com/camouflaging-the-enzymes/.

If your pup developed any mouth sores from the caustic properties of the enzymes. in addition to some of the suggestions.... if she already has sores, you might want to get a squirt bottle and flush her mouth out with water after she eats, or give her few ices cubes to munch on after eating.. this all helps in addition to longer incubation, or a pinch more water added i the food.

Looking forward to hearing how things are going today.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:11

Hello Barb,

Thank you so much for your reply! I was a little panicked yesterday because, unfortunately, Mia (my little pup) has been sick for almost two years with severe symptoms like daily vomiting and bloody stool. After I gave her a daily dosage of probiotics 6 months ago, all those symptoms have disappeared, but I'm always fearful I'll end up giving her something that will restart those particular symptoms on top of this new chronic diarrhea.

Thankfully, when one vet diagnosed her with HGE (they've had a lot of trouble pinpointing her diagnosis), she started eating Royal Canin HP diet food, and I gave her B12 shots. I give her shots pretty regularly, and she also takes B12 supplements every day.

I have been thinking about starting her on tylosin since she had elevated folate levels in May. We have been in Korea for part of the time that she's been sick (she was rescued in Korea), and they have banned tylosin so she hasn't been on it before. However, she's been on Metronidazole for almost 4 months now to help with the SIBO and it seems to be effective based on blood work and how much less gassy she is when on it.

I think it's a great idea to keep a log on the computer! I already feel so much more organized. I had been trying to keep one in a notebook, but it gets messy so quickly, mostly because of my terrible handwriting.

In my rush to write the post, I think I forgot to mention that she ate the enzymes without a problem (I smothered all the food in canned food, a favorite of hers). It was only a couple hours afterwards, though, that she started feeling sick. Unfortunately, at the moment, the IBD, I believe, is making her feel sick after taking the digestive enzymes. She feels sick and vomits after eating things like meat and dairy. For the enzymes, she had some of the worst diarrhea she's ever had coupled with loss of appetite, all through last night and early this morning. By morning's time though, she was already recovered and happily eating.

The internal medicine specialist doesn't believe she's allergic to anything, so she should be okay with porcine digestive enzymes, but she just needs to be introduced to them very, very slowly. So I gave her an extremely small dose (less than 1/4 teaspoon with a 2/3 cup and her canned food) this morning, and she seems to be doing okay so far! The first dose was 1/2 teaspoon with a 2/3 cup and canned food. The first time, I let it incubate for 20 minutes, and today, for about 23 minutes.

Do you know if letting it incubate longer (over an hour or even several hours) could be bad for her? I'm trying to plan ahead for days when I'm working, and someone else will need to give her food.

I will definitely check out Diane's website -- it was scary to see the cost of enzymes so I'll be glad to find another source.

Would you have any advice on shipping and storage? I read on the bottle I received that the enzymes shouldn't be hotter than 77 degrees, and since I'm moving to California in a couple weeks, I'm worried about getting them without having them damaged.

I really appreciate all the advice and tips you have given me! Although I'm really happy to finally have actual diagnoses, it's a daunting task to figure everything out by myself so it was fantastic finding this forum.

Thanks,
Danielle
Barb wrote: 31 Jul 2018, 17:25 Hello and welcome to our EPI family.

We know how difficult it is when you first start treating EPI to keep everything straight and absorb all the new information. So first, keep breathing.......

Some dogs react negatively to the enzymes at first. Whether it is the smell or the taste or the consistency, we don't know. Other dogs are not bothered at all and will eat anything. Our dog, Kolby, did not like the enzymes at all and for a while refused to eat anything with enzymes on it. We had been so glad to finally get a diagnosis, to know what was the matter with him, and to know that it was manageable with enzymes and a few other things......like you, we bought very expensive enzymes from the vet and prepared his food.........he took one sniff, looked at us like we were tying to poison him, put his nose in the air, and walked away. We were heartsick......

But here we are 8 years later.... He is at his goal weight of 84 pounds (actually, I think he was 85 last time we weighed him) and although I don't think he LOVES the enzymes, he finishes every plateful. So hang in there.

There are many people here who have picky eaters who I'm sure will chime in with what they have done to entice their pups to eat....But there are a couple of questions that come to mind before we do that. Do you know if your pup's B12 level was tested and what the number was? It would probably be listed under cobalamin. Most of our dogs have low B12 when they are first diagnosed and low B12 often affects their appetite. You mentioned SIBO. This, too, affects their appetite and might be connected to low B12 . We usually suggest a 45 day protocol of tylan (tylosin) powder, a mild antibiotic, to combat the SIBO and a 6 week course of weekly B12 injections if the B12 is low.

One other thing you mentioned was the dose of enzymes. The amount of enzymes given depends on the amount of food given. We usually suggest to start with 1 teaspoon of enzyme powder per cup of kibble. Can you tell us how much food you are giving and what kind? Also how are you preparing the food and enzymes? Sorry to give you all these questions, but it helps us know how we can best help you.

I know how hard this is at the beginning while you are trying to get your pup stabilized. We have all been where you are so we understand how you are feeling. Try not to get discouraged. There are lots of people here to help. We also know that you are dealing with two conditions, EPI and IBD. I will let someone who is also dealing with both of those conditions chime in and give you suggestions.

One of the best suggestions I was given when I joined the Forum was to keep a daily log. You can download a blank form from the products page above or just used a notebook. Record everything that you give your pup, the amounts, and the resulting poo each day. This will help you see what is working and what isn't. It also helps you to keep everything in one place when you have questions for your vet or one of us.


Please ask any questions you have.

Barb
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:33

Hi Madelon,

Thanks for your support! I'm going to give that flat plate a try the next time she's not feeling that hungry.

I also noticed that you give your puppy Slippery Elm. It wasn't until I was reading through epi4dogs.com that I had heard about it, and I was curious to see if your dog likes it or if you just give it in capsule form?

Danielle
Madelon wrote: 31 Jul 2018, 19:40 I am so sorry your pup is not wanting to eat. Barb gave you some excellent advice and asked some very important questions.

The powder enzymes are caustic and if not mixed with a little water and incubated with the food it can cause burning/mouth sores, which is what I'm guessing may have happened or just the taste itself is horrible. We recommend mixing the enzymes with a little luke warm water and then incubating with the food for 20-30 minutes before serving in order to prevent mouth sores, etc. If dealing with a picky eater you can try feeding on a flat plate and/or putting a little topper on top of the food to entice.

It can be overwhelming in the beginning, but don't worry we are all here to help you along the way!
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:38

So from what I was getting, I thought that the enzymes and the food had to sit together before I gave it to her. So it would still be okay to prepare the enzymes in a separate dish with the liquified canned food and then pouring it on top of her dry food? Or would that also be a depends-on-the-dog kind of situation?

By the way, I saw how you were fixing up your online log so that it feeds into a Google spreadsheet so I started doing that a couple days ago. Really great method!

Thanks for your help,
Danielle
Bpcooper14 wrote: 31 Jul 2018, 20:09 I am relatively new to this EPI thing myself. Ace was diagnosed the end of May with EPI and had lost 10 pounds from January until then. he was at 24.8 lbs and we were at a loss. Through A TON of information on this website, I was able to start piecing the puzzle together (or so I thought). I had no problems getting him to eat and then 1 day, he decided he wasn't interested anymore. Was it too much liquid? Not enough? Smell? Stubbornness?
For us, the method that seemingly has worked the best has been taking 1 tsp enzymes and placing it in a few tsp of hot water and letting sit for 5-10 min. We'll then mix that in with a small portion of his meal and let it sit another 5-10 min. Finally, I'll add the rest of the food in and anything we are adding to it (B12, Slippery Elm, etc.) and feed him. More often than not, the bowl is usually completely empty. On the rare occasion he doesn't finish his meal, the kibble is usually to "mushy" and he eats it not long after.
With so many things going on, it's easy to not know what direction to go and what you think you are doing wrong. The hardest thing is to continue down a certain path and not make continual adjustments before the system acclimates to the new routine and changes. There are some phenomenal folks here!
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:42

I hope your puppy gets that right mix and starts to feel better! You're right about it being stressful wondering what will work and what won't. If it helps at all, I thought my dog would forever be vomiting and having bloody everything, but all it took was getting that right dose of probiotics, and her recovery from it has been so amazing. So I have to have a lot of hope that it's all about finding that right balance to get that full recovery.
Angboys3 wrote: 01 Aug 2018, 10:35 I don’t have anything to add as we are new to this as well. I just gave my dog her first enzymes as well. She is also a very picky eater, a poodle. She likes the Stella and Chewy freeze dried patties. I crumble one on top with her kibble and she will usually eat.

Hope you are able to find a combo of food, enzymes and meds that work! I know how stressful it is to see your dog getting skinner. I am in that same boat right now. Got to have faith that something works.
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:44

That's a good trick! I wish I could give her cheese (she really loves cheese), but she just ends up throwing it up 30 minutes later.
judyfcollins@live.ca wrote: 01 Aug 2018, 07:06 Hi and welcome to the Forum. You have gotten excellent advice above.

Piper had no issue with the enzymes but she really disliked the taste of Tylan so I would mix a little bit of stinky cheese (parmesan) into her food and she would eat it. Maybe that would be something to try. My non EPI dog is an extremely picky eater and I know I would have a real struggle to get him to eat if it were him so I definitely feel for you.
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by Olesia711 » 01 Aug 2018, 17:46

Hi Danielle and thanks for the more detailed update. VERY HELPFUL :)

To answer some of your questions..... the enzymes are fine kept in your house... the temps that destroy it is 130 degree will kill the enzymes and freezing them will inactivate them. SO... what many of us do is pour a few weeks worth of some of the powdered enzymes in a tupperware and keep in the kitchen cabinet. The rest (many of us) double seal (cause you do not want moisture to get to the enzymes before you use them) and toss them in the freezer ......helps keep them longer :).

I am so glad you posted the amount of food and the amount of enzymes you gave your pup- because since you are using wet (canned) food .... this is an approximate full amount of enzymes for wet food. The ratio is to start with 1 tsp of enzymes per 1 cup of kibble (dry) then add water and adjust accordingly if needed.... BUT... with wet food, the ratio is different... for 1 cup of wet (canned) food the starting recommendation is 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp to start with......and you did: "The first dose was 1/2 teaspoon with a 2/3 cup and canned food." and if she is extra sensitive.... that is probably why she didn't feel so great afterwards since her M.O. sounds like you have to work up towards full dose. SOooooooooo dropping it to a 1/4 tsp sounds like it worked out perfectly.... and i just have to say..... you are showing signs of being a very caring and cognizant EPI mom.... trying things slowly one at a time and understanding that "adjustments" may need to be made :)

REgarding incubation.... we strongly suggest NOT to go over 1 hr due to bacteria setting in the food sitting around.... and heaven knows we have enough issues without complicating things with even more bacterial upsets. Usually anywhere between 5 and 15 more minutes can make a huge difference with most of the very sensitive dogs.
Hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:47

Thank you, and thanks for your advice. Do you know if there's ever a limit to how long you can incubate?
Riley's Mom wrote: 01 Aug 2018, 08:03 Welcome to the forum.
Oh how I well I remember the beginning when my girl refused to eat, even though she was literally starving. It was heartbreaking. In the beginning, I fed her spoonfuls and encouraged each bite I was so desperate to get her to eat. 4 years later, I still have a picky eater, but at least she is goal weight now. Part of our problem was that Riley was a "free feeder" prior to diagnosis. So everything about her eating routine was changed. You may be dealing with something like that too.
So things you can try with a picky eater....First, try incubating longer. For some that makes a difference in taste and also the mouth sores Madelon referred to.
Try mixing the enzymes in broth instead of water. My girl will not touch enzymes mixed in water. I make home made bone broth. Not difficult to do, just takes a little time in the crock pot. Try feeding on a flat plate instead of a bowl. IBD does change what you can give your pup, so you have to be careful what you add to the food, but I add toppers. Cheese or canned dog food or anything that masks the flavor of the enzymes will probably help. Don't be afraid to experiment a little with what you do with the food, but because of the IBD, make sure whatever you add is a food that she can tolerate.
It will get better. Everyone will adjust to the new routine. But I do get the panicky feeling when you have a super skinny dog that will not eat. Keep at it and stay in touch so we can help you work through it.
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Loss of Appetite After 1st Digestive Enzyme Dose

Post by miamunchkin » 01 Aug 2018, 17:56

Hi,

She's doing much better today (yay!) so I think it was the IBD, and not the enzymes or something else, that caused her to be sick yesterday. She's already eating back to normal, and her stool has gone back from a bad 7 to a decent 5.

I had heard about that as well, and I was thinking about ensuring that every piece of food has enzymes in it. However, I'm a little wary about doing that right now based on how quickly she recovered once the enzymes were out of her system. I think her IBD is going to interfere until she's been fully transitioned into a full dose of enzymes.

Thanks for the tips! Thankfully, right now, she's eating them okay, but if that changes, it'll be good to have resource to look at.

When I heard that some dogs get sores, that really worried me so thank you for the advice. Right now, her HP diet food is pretty dry so she ends up drinking a lot of water right after she finishes so I'm hoping that, and the 20-minute incubation period will prevent any sores or bleeding.

Thanks again for the help!
Olesia711 wrote: 01 Aug 2018, 13:48 How is your pup dong today with her meals.... is she eating fine.... or is she avoiding her food???

Everyone gave you really good suggestions.... and jsut so you know..... in dealing with EPI.... there are suggested/recommended protocols/standards... and these suggestions "usually" work... but the reason why there are so many options is because not all EPI dogs respond accordingly- -so we have learned to offer multiple suggestions in hopes that you will find one that does work for your pup.

I do have a question for you..... you mentioned that your pup ate her meal fine with the enzymes... but it was afterwards that she did not want any of her "snacks". With EPI... you DO NOT want to give anything without enzymes. everything she eats needs to have enzymes. Every meal. In the beginning we strongly advise "no snacks/treats".... wait until she is stable ... which means delivering normal looking poo at a normal amount of times a day (eliminating anywhere between 1 to 3 times a day) :)

Also... if your pup does have an issue with the enzymes in the food.... we have a page on camouflaging enzymes - but as (i think it was Barb) so wisely mentioned... with IBD, you should only use those toppers that are acceptable with your pup. Anyway... here is the page on camouflaging enzymes: https://epi4dogs.com/camouflaging-the-enzymes/.

If your pup developed any mouth sores from the caustic properties of the enzymes. in addition to some of the suggestions.... if she already has sores, you might want to get a squirt bottle and flush her mouth out with water after she eats, or give her few ices cubes to munch on after eating.. this all helps in addition to longer incubation, or a pinch more water added i the food.

Looking forward to hearing how things are going today.
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 318 guests