Bad poops are back - Kira’s story

[Kmaclean18]

Hello everyone!
I am so happy with the new website, it is so user friendly and I can finally create an account! My name is Kristina and my dog is Kira. She is a 1.5 year old female GSD with EPI. we found out about her epi in April and it has been quite the rollercoaster. I will post everything here, but to start we wouldn’t be where we are with her if it wasn’t for this website and the people behind it! Even though I couldn’t post, I was messaging people on the FB group and they were so helpful.

Back in late March/April we noticed Kira was pooping every couple hours, it did not look normal, and she was rapidly loosing weight. She also had never been a big eater and was now eating everything,

We took her to the vet and he said he thought it might be epi but he wanted to put her on a bland diet, give her metronidazole and wait 10 days and if she was not better then they would test for epi. I was surprised and asked if they could just test now and after some talking he agreed. (Although he never mentioned the test should be fasted). But I wanted to know ASAP that way we could begin treating, instead of waiting ten days and watching her lose more weight !
Her results came back as follows :
Phosphorus high - 6.3
Precision PSL low - 8
Lymphcytes high - 4592
Eosinophils high - 1568
Folate high - 18.8
B12 - low normal 353
Trypsinogen low <1.0

I have all her other levels too but they were all listed as normal. None of what any of this means was ever explained to me. Once the results came back the vet called and told me she has EPI + SIBO and that I needed to continue the metronidazole, pick up her enzymes, prescription food and probiotics (proviable forte).
Instructions for enzymes were 1 tsp per meal.
So we listened to the vet of course because we were so scared for our poor girl and did all of the above...and paid a nice hefty vet bill.
Kira was not really getting better , poops were still bad and she started gagging and coughing a lot and it would wake us up in the middle of the night. This is when I began doing my own research and found this website.
We also brought her back to the vet and explained and he said it could just take time for her to get better and to keep watching and come back in two weeks and that most dogs are fine on jus the powder alone,
I chatted on FB messenger with someone from this website and told them all the above. They said I should change her food, get tylan powder, up the enzymes and add b12.
So we put he back on her old food (taste of the wild pacific stream) And started giving her 2 tsp to go with her two cups of food. We got the Tylan powder from the vet. They instructed 1/4 tsp per day, but we did twice a day as we had read on here. Got the b12 capsules and continued the probiotics. We had a hard time getting her to eat her food with all this stuff in it so we decided to try mixing in a little bit of chopped boiled chicken, and it did the trick. Finally within a week of doing all this we were finally seeing good solid consistent poops! Yay! - so this is mid May now, we continued all of this to miD June. Then we weaned her off of the probiotics and tylan powder.
Currently she is getting am and pm:
2 cups Towt pacific stream
2 tbsp chopped boiled chicken
2 tsp enzymes
1 b12 capsule

She has gained about 10-15lbs ( so she is about 70-75lbs) since being diagnosed but I think she could still use more. She does poop a lot still, about 4 times per day, and they are pretty decent size poops. In the past week I noticed they are now a little looser and the color has been varying from the normal brown to a little lighter, almost that yellowish color at some points... but then she will randomly have a good poop. So I am not sure what’s going on. Maybe I am just begin paranoid or maybe the SIBO is coming back? Should I get more tylan powder again and see if it helps?
Basically from all of this I just wanted to get some opinions on her regimen and see if anyone has any suggestions! We have not been back to the vet since April. We are moving anyway so we are going to switch vets. Let me know if there is any other info you think would help! Thank you!!

[Olesia711]

Hi Kristina..... OMG Kira is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!! wow!!

Okay.... what i suspect you are seeing is SID (formerly called SIBO).... the latest is that all dogs with EPI have SID and so far, even when we think all is fin cuz poops are normal.... the SID is still there in an EPI dog, just well controlled.

My experience has been that when you see the poos start becoming larger... very often it is usually that the food is not 100% optimal. ......BUT....sometimes that food, although not 100% optimal, is actually the best that you have found up to this point. So sometimes it is worth changing, sometimes it is not.....

The other thing is that you stopped the Tylan and Probiotics.... some EPI dogs need multiple courses of Tylan ..... and then some even need to stay on Tylan (just a small maintenance dose) for the rest of the lives.

Also.... what they have recently discovered is that EPI dogs do NOT (1) have enough bacteria in the gut (2) nor do they ahve a big variety of bacteria (some strains are actually missing) .... so if you give a probiotic, be sure that there are prebiotics in the product also and if not, give prebiotics. Prebiotics is food for bacteria.
Here is a picture that explains Probitoics and Prebiotics:


So....there are various ways to address this,

One option is put Kira back on another course of Tylan. If you do this, I would also put her back on the probitoics jsut be sure there are prebiotics with it Then when you get towards the end... slowly reduce the amount like you did before ..... and then when completed, again...watch to see if the poos start to get a little larger again... if so.... this might be your clue that Kira would be best to be kept on a maintenance dose of Tylan.... you can go with as low as 5mg/kg if she appears to be a lifer with Tylan.

Or.........do your research into different foods... Usually TOTW-Pacific STream works very well with "most" of our dogs" as it's fiber content is nice and low at 3% (if i remember correctly) but every so often there is one that it just doesn't agree with it...

If you decided to try changing the food.... you can do trial and error with different brands of commercial food and different composition... but.... althou it sounds like a little more work, in the end it is actually a short cut.... if you do want to change foods... make your own, but start with limited ingredients, like baked, skinned and defatted chicken breast (maybe 75-80%) and mashed sweet potato (maybe 25-20%)... watch her poo... and then add 1 ingredient at a time (after a few days... and this will help you identify what works with her system and what triggers it. If you decide to stay with home-prepared, you cannot just give food ... after 3 weeks or so, you will need to start adding a quality doggie vitamin and some sort of bone supplement. My gal did best on higher protein and lower carb foods... however, once my gal became a diabetic and i had to increase the sweet potato... to compensate, i had to increase the enzymes by a pinch.

SO.... that is yet another option.... you can not change anything you are doing now and just increase the enzymes by 1/8 of a tsp..and if it helps but not 100% then increase by another 1/8 tsp..... and continue until you get the desired results.... but in this case, i would consider still adding the probiotics with a prebiotic to help things along. ...

OR........... another thing you can try is not change a thing but introduce slippery elm to encourage bacterial growth and get that SID under better management. Check out the SLippery Elm page.... for dosing guide... but jsut know that this prebioitc has a lot of SCFAs in it and too much can also give loose stools so sometimes with Slippery Elm less is even better. Always get powdered Slippery Elm...not capsules, cause you need to be able to control the dose.

SO many choices... eh??!!!! See which one you think would be best to try first, and KEEP NOTES!!!!! that will help you see what helps or hinder Kira.

Hope this helps a little!

[jilbert57]

Kira is just gorgeous, you are doing a great job. Just wanted to welcome you to the forum. Glad you could finally register!

[Barb]

A very warm welcome to you, Kristina, and Kira. She is stunning. I am so glad you could hang in until you could post on the new website. But you did your own research, found our good people on the FB page, and have managed to put 10 - 15 pounds on your pup. That is amazing! She is very, very lucky to have you.

Olesia has already given you excellent advice on what might be going on with SID/SIBO, etc. One thing I would suggest as you adjust things (which we all have to do from time to time) is to keep a daily log of everything you give Kira, including meds, the amounts, and the resulting poos. You can download a blank log form from this site or just use a notebook. Seeing everything on paper can give you so much information that you wouldn't have if you didn't see it in writing. Sometimes, you start to see patterns of what is working and what isn't. I still go back to my log when Kolby has an "off" time.

I don't know if you have done this already, but I highly recommend Enzyme Diane for your enzymes. Many of us have been using her enzymes for years at a fraction of the cost of the vet's or commercial brands. I also live in New Jersey and found the cost of veterinary enzymes prohibitive. Diane is a member here and she started supplying enzymes when her own dog developed EPI. She is wonderful to work with and has an excellent product. She publishes her phone number on her site and is glad to talk to you and answer your questions. (enzymediane.com)

You have done an amazing job of treating Kira. Let us know how she is doing.

Barb

[Kmaclean18]

Thank you!!
Yes I do use enzyme Diane !
I have ordered slippery elm, now brand powder form, and more tylan powder.
I forgot to mention Kira also has thrown up twice in the past week or two. It is just clear bile but it is not normal for her. I believe it could also be from the SID/SIBO, correct?
My husband completely veto’d the home made diet haha I think we are going to try the slippery elm with her first. Since she is about 70-75 lbs, the dosing would be 1/2tsp once a day , right?
I was also thinking of adding salmon oil to her diet because she seems to be a little itchy. Whenever we give her a back scratch she goes into thumper mode. But I think I will wait until we get the SID back under control.
I will definitely begin a log too thanks for the tip!

[Olesia711]

Hi Kristine,

ahhhh... that white foamy bile..... yea.... sometimes SID triggers that sometimes it is just too much acid from an empty stomach and things are just not right..............Many times you can fix that by giving a little something so that stomach is not empty for too long of a time.... some of our members noticed that tends to happen in the morning .... so they fix it by giving a tiny just before bedtime "snack" with a tiny pinch of enzymes.... not sure if this is what is going on with Kira, but possibly.... and yes... SID can trigger this too

Yes the recommended Slippery Elm powder dose for a dog Kira's size would be 1/2 tsp... so try it...if the poos get mushy or mushier.... then reduce it to 1/4 tsp and see if that works better. As with many things used to manage EPI & it's side kick SID or B12, it is often a trial an error thing

Just a FYI.... when you see them puke up that yellow bile stuff..... that is usually a bacterial upset .........

[Madelon]

Hi there!! Just wanted to pop in and say welcome to our family. My boy is 3yrs into EPI and every now and then will puke bike first thing in the am - as he did this an. Because everything else EPI related has been stable for so long I no longer panic and he’s fine the rest of the day. I do give him SE powder every day - he’s never had such glorious perfect poops until the SE!! I give a bit less though - 1/2tsp - he’s 100lbs.

It’s a bit of s learning curve in the beginning but you’re doing awesome!!

[Bpcooper14]

Wow Madelon! I would be beside myself if Ace puked bikes first thing in the morning. Sounds painful! Have to love the auto-correct function sometimes.

[Olesia711]

Too funny Bill!!!! i justt went back and re-read Madelon's post.... hehehehe.... yea, puking up bikes would freak me out too!
But i can't laugh too loud, as i tend to make a zillion typos myself when i type.... so i am just quietly snickering here........

[Madelon]

Well considering Doc poops live fly larvae it wouldn’t surprise me if he did puke bikes