New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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lorimsage14
Member
Posts: 2
Location: League City
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: Lori

New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by lorimsage14 » 15 Apr 2020, 16:41

Hello,

I first want to say what a great site this is, thank you! It has helped so much, especially since my vet has almost no experience with EPI.

Here is my Jasper's story. Jasper is a 20 pound shelter mutt. He was about 24 pounds when all of this started. Around Christmas time Jasper started having little episodes, where he wouldn't eat, grumbly tummy and just generally couldn't get comfortable. It would last about 12 hours and then he would be fine. This happened 4-5 times over December and January. During these months his poop was totally normal and he wasn't losing any weight. Finally at the end of January decided to take him to the vet. Blood test, fecal test, xrays all normal. So the vet decided to put Jasper on Science Diet I\D, I had been using Blue Buffalo Freedom. First only the cans and this is when the yellow soft poop starting happening. At first just thought it was the food, it was very light colored and soft. We started using the the I\D dry and it didn't really improve. Before we started the I\D Jasper was a little on the fluffy side, with the I\D he lost almost 4 pounds in 6 weeks. I made an appointment with my vet, but before I went in I switched Jasper back to Blue Buffalo and immediately his poop got better, still a little soft but better and the color improved. The vet did a GI panel and sent it off to Texas A&M where it came back with the EPI diagnosis. I decided to get a second opinion and made an appointment with an internal medicine specialist. He did another TLI test and it came back as <1. I don't have the numbers from the first test. So we started on the powder and Jasper is still going through B12 shots. His temperament and energy haven't really changed. He is still a happy lovable energetic pup that he has always been which is great! His poop is generally a 2 or 3 and he isn't losing any weight. I have put him on Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Bison dry food which he likes.

He however despises the powder. I have tried hiding in it other stuff, it works at first but eventually he stops eating it. How long can you leave food out with the powder on it? Jasper will eventually eat but sometimes it and hour or later after I put it down. Is it enough just to get the powder in him or does it have to be on the food?

Has anyone had luck using capsules?

Thanks again!!!

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1210
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Apr 2020, 19:27

Hi Lori and welcome to you and Jasper... and thank you for the kind words about this website.

What you are describing happens to some of these EPI dogs where it appears that they just don't like the taste of the enzymes....BUT..... sometimes there is more to the story.... which i will get into in a minute.... but first let me answer your question about capsules as that is easy.

1. Pouring the designated amount of enzymes into empty gel caps and tucking the capsules in something and giving it to the dog this way with their meal, although not ideal, it will work. Sometimes you just have to include an extra capsule of powder ore than all the capsules you have to give to equal the amount of powder you'd normally sprinkle on the food.

2. THere are also enzyme pills/tablets but they are more expensive and you have to use anywhere between 3 and 9 pills per meal per dog depending on the amount of food and the individual dog. They will work in most cases but only if you crush the pills and best to let them incubate on the food...so... after all this trouble and more expense it is usually better to just stick with the powder.

For now, my suggestion is to do #1.

I will do another post in a minute and explain more of the story....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1210
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Apr 2020, 19:51

the "more to the story".....

In most cases, even when the dog has an aversion to the enzymes... sooner or later they learn to just eat the food with the enzymes... so it can be a process.

HOWEVER... that being said, what you described " He however despises the powder. I have tried hiding in it other stuff, it works at first but eventually he stops eating it."
When eating the food (with enzymes) appears to work initially and then they stop eating it".... sometimes this "appears" to be the enzymes, but in reality the underlying cause is either:
1. Low B12
2. SID / SIBO getting out of control

B12: Some EPI dogs, especially the smaller ones, for some reason don't respond well to the B1(cyanocobalamin version of B12) shots and their B12 levels don't really come up enough until you give them a different version of B12 whether it is Hydroxycobalamin B12 or Methylcobalamin B12. The Hydroxy is human grade B12 and the Methyl B12 many of us use instead of the shots because we purchase it (cheap) on line with no prescription needed and the majority of EPI dogs that take the Methylcobalamin B12 pills, they actually seem to do better on this than the shots.... The product that we use is WOnderlabs Pet Factor B12 https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 or Trinfac https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881 .... (and you get a 15% discount if you use the EPI code: EPI4DOGS15).

SO.... one suspect for this fading appetite would be that Jasper's B12 is not above optimal (around or above 600)

SID / SIBO Man, many EPI parents have insisted that their dog hates the enzymes and now won't eat (or that their dog has and allergy to pig because all of a sudden the stools are loose since starting the enzymes). Jasper would fall in this first category.... it is very possible that he starts off okay with his meals and then goes off his food cause SID/SIBO is getting out of control and it is starting to hurt..... and that is why he starts off okay when you try camouflaging the enzymes... and things then go south.

What you might want to try is giving him a little Slippery Elm powder (give a pinch less than what is recommended and add a tablespoon of water to the food).. you can mix this directly in the food or else just pour it in an empty gel cap and serve that way.. jsut make sure he drinks a little water after eating...

Or you can ask the vet to just try giving Tylan antibiotic powder (put in a capsule!!!... if he has a sensitive palate... he is NOT going to like the taste of Tylan!) and see if that fixes the less than enthusiastic appetite... although honestly.... when possible it's better to try and correct SID via a prebiotic first vs. bringing in the big guns right away and giving an antibiotic. Slippery ELm is a prebiotic and a mucilage... and a must have item with most EPI dogs :)

Regarding how long to leave food in a bowl... or guideline is no more than an hour if that... especially in hot area ... better at less than an hour. Problem is that if you leave food out too long, bad bacteria may form on the food and that's the last thing you want to add to an EPI dog's diet..........

Regarding the powder... it is much better when mixed in the food... however with some, it is just not possible and giving it in a different form will work depending on the application.

Hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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jilbert57
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Posts: 941
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by jilbert57 » 16 Apr 2020, 08:35

Hi Lori and Jasper,
Sorry you have had a time of it!
Olesia has given you great advice to get Jasper straight.
Mickey had chronic pancreatitis and ate enzymes for about a year. Had the best poops ever combined with Tylan 2 times a day for SID/SIBO. Then he decided to stop eating food if it had been incubated with enzymes. Like Olesia said, some can use capsules and Mick was one of them. I got an inexpensive plastic capsule filler, used enzymes from enzymediane.com, and empty gel caps from Amazon. Made my own filled caps(also used this for his doses of tylan as it is bitter). Worked great.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Jean
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Posts: 953
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by Jean » 16 Apr 2020, 10:08

just a huge welcome from me in the UK

Nothing much else to add

keep a diary on everything

My Kara was a nightmare to start with but that was due to low b12, but our enzymes over here have very little, or no taste at all. and at the start she was on capsules which were sprinkled on food, definitely no taste

if you use Tylan, dont rub your eyes, it stings, we used it for 9 years

ask away
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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lorimsage14
Member
Posts: 2
Location: League City
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: Lori

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by lorimsage14 » 16 Apr 2020, 15:59

Thank you for all of the information. I have some Slippery Elm on order. That sounds much better than antibiotics. Jasper did have a round of Metronidazole which he finished about a week ago.

Jasper is still getting a weekly B12 shot. He has 3 more to go. After that should I start him on regular B12? Or wait until he gets another blood test?

I have received my first shipment from Enzyme Diane. I am finishing up the one my vet got me, which is PancrePlus.

I will keep fighting with the food, hopefully he will start to eat it. He doesn't seem to be losing any weight right now which is good.

Thanks!

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1210
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: New Diagnosis and a Couple of Questions

Post by Olesia711 » 16 Apr 2020, 22:11

Ahhh... so your vet WAS treating for SID/SIBO.... with Metronidazole. That is what was always prescribed in the past.... but it doesn't always work so well. Then they discovered that Tylan, which is a macrolide antibiotic, appears to work better. SO.... do try the SLippery Elm first.... see if that is just enough to get the SID back under good control, and if it doesn't quite correct the problem.... THEN ask your vet for a course of Tylan instead of Metronidazole.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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