Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
plilak
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: Ohio
Pet name: Bambi
My name: pam

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by plilak » 30 Jul 2020, 11:15

Hi Olesia,

No go on the goat milk. I stopped giving that and am finding that she does best on only kibble. Right now mixing half Hills WD and half TOW pacific stream...will eventually get to all TOW. She did do ok on the sweet potatoes. Maybe I will stick with kibble and sweet potatoes.

What do you think about b12? Should I have the vet check or just give her the intrinsic factor B12 pills suggested on the forum site?

What fish oil do you suggest?

Poo...she does good, has normal one then about a minute later sometimes goes more and this time more loose. Any ideas? Or is this just normal?

She is going in today for a glucose monitoring. Let's see. I noticed something twice. Last week and just this morning, before eating time she was chattering her teeth together. Like when someone is cold. Is this just excitement for food or something with glucose levels? Wondering if you experienced this with your dog.

Thanks :)
Pam

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Shirl D.
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Posts: 86
Country: United States
State: New York

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by Shirl D. » 02 Aug 2020, 11:48

Hi Pam,
Olesia has had a few things keeping her away from the forum for a few days, but I will try to answer at least some of your questions, and I'll ask her to take a look at your most recent post when she gets a chance.
B12 - Is she getting any B12 supplements right now and do you know what her B12 level was when she was first diagnosed? Our EPI dogs do best if their B12 is in the upper range of normal, over 600. The best practice would be to check the B12 level (if it hasn't been done recently) first, then start supplements. That being said, many people just supplement without checking because we know that the vast majority of EPI dogs will need B12 supplementing and they can't really overdose on B12. The body will absorb what is needed and any extra will be excreted in the urine.
Since I don't really know much about diabetes with EPI, I'm going to leave the rest of the questions for Olesia! How was her glucose on Thursday? Did you ask the vet about the teeth chattering?

plilak
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: Ohio
Pet name: Bambi
My name: pam

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by plilak » 02 Aug 2020, 12:29

Hello,

Her glucose is still high. 500. They increased to 5 units. She weighs 11 pounds. B12 was normal, that is what the vet said when they tested her about three weeks ago. I don't know the numbers.

I am having a hard time with the diabetes. Feeding her a mixture of the taste of the wild and the WD kibble...Vet is AGAINST grain free food and they are pushing HIlls or Purina pro plan, all prescritption food. I am looking for another vet closer to my home. This has been challenging....

Pam

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2020, 14:06

I am so sorry you are going thru this, when a vet doesn't want to listen or hear "WHY" something may not apply to an EPI dog, that makes me sad..... and at 500.... your pup's Diabetes is WAY out of whack and they should be doing more.

Your thought to get another vet is something IMHO i would pursue.

First at this point, because your foster dog has been struggling with high blood glucose for quite a while at too high numbers :( so.... there are two things that i would suggest you consider.

#1. If i remember correctly, this foster is a tiny little thing, about 10lbs.. correct? To get the blood sugar down, and well maintained, i would start fixing home-prepared meals since it won't be too much cuz she is so small. SHe normally would need approx 360 cal a day.. but with EPI you need to feed about 540 until she puts some weight back on. Or even go ALL home made for a while but be sure to include bone meal and a quality doggie vitamin .. this is very important.
EXAMPLE:
If you feed her 1/2 cup of Taste of the wild with
1 cup baked, skinned and defatted chicken breast
1/2 cup baked, skinned and mashed sweet potato
1/2 cup of Fat Free Cottage Cheese
And a leaf or two of cooked and smashed Kale, or some cooked green beans, or squash.

daily... this ought to bring her blood glucose way down. and much more manageable and you can call me and i will help you privately to get the diet right for her.

OR...............

#2 My thought is that this foster dog might best be served with a combo insulin, but you need a vet that is more open to working with you. Some vets try to treat all diabetes cases like a one size (insulin type) fits all.... and with EPI, it is often not like dealing with typical Diabetes.

Image

http://www.petdiabetes.com/cdinsulin.html
Attachments
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2020, 14:18

Also... with an EPI dog, the vet telling you the B12 is normal is NOT good enough.... please ask them for the exact B12 test results.
EPI dog need to be in the UPPER-Normal range.... so sometimes when a vet says normal it is not a good B12 level for a dog.

Regarding what fish oil to give there are many brans out there.... i used to give EFAs by Swansons, but some of the betters ones are something like : http://www.petdiabetes.com/cdinsulin.html

BTW... if you stick with the vet and he INSISTS on Purina ProPlan... this one is low in fiber content... BUT.... if you read the ingredients and compare it to Taste of the Wild,,,, you can see the difference between Purino ProPLan (even the low fiber one) and TOTW Pacific Stream
Here is TOTW Pacific Stream.. Image.... vs. a PurinaPro even with low fiber content- -not much healthy stuff in the ProPlan: Image
Attachments
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Purina ProPlan.jpg
Purina ProPlan.jpg (45.41 KiB) Viewed 2762 times
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

plilak
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: Ohio
Pet name: Bambi
My name: pam

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by plilak » 02 Aug 2020, 17:35

Thank you Olesia. I am giving her the senior multi vitamin from natur vet. Will try calling some other vets tomorrow to get an appointment. They want her on the purina pro plan EN...worse ingredients than the plan purina pro plan you listed below. Perhaps we can talk on the phone. I never had a diabetic dog. I assume I am giving the shots right. I did not get that monitor. She yelps when she gets poked and I am trying the best I can with all this. I prefer the vet do that test and if I can get to the vet down my street would be great.

About the food. I can make her something. For spiritual reasons, I do not purchase, touch, cook flesh. It is a struggle for me so I prefer to buy the chicken in a can or get the kibble that will work for her. I am very torn now and wonder if she needs a home where someone has more experience. She seems happy and gained weight, looks much better. They test her blood sugar at 1:30 pm after her noon snack. also, I give her, once a day, these dental treats. Maybe that spikes her sugar. They are so small. But who knows.

Happy to talk on the phone. 917.375.9806.


purina pro plan EN:
Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Corn, Chicken Meal, Animal Fat Preserved with Mixed-Tocopherols (Form of Vitamin E), Coconut Oil, Calcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Wheat Bran, Animal Digest, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Sodium Bicarbonate, Salt, Fish Oil, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Dried Colostrum, Choline Chloride, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Manganese Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Garlic Oil, Folic Acid, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Sodium Selenite.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2020, 22:00

Hi Pam,
I will call you tomorrow late morning.... based on your post, i feel a phone conversation would be more helpful!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

plilak
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: Ohio
Pet name: Bambi
My name: pam

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by plilak » 03 Aug 2020, 11:44

Hi Again,

THANK YOU for your time today.

I went to look for the fish oil and saw the link was not correct. You had said:

"Regarding what fish oil to give there are many brans out there.... i used to give EFAs by Swansons, but some of the betters ones are something like : http://www.petdiabetes.com/cdinsulin.html"

This links to the insulin page...what fish oil did you suggest?

Pam

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Shirl D.
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Posts: 86
Country: United States
State: New York

Re: Diabetes and EPI- What to Feed?

Post by Shirl D. » 04 Aug 2020, 16:13

Pam,

Did you ever find out what fish oil it was?

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