My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by Jean » 06 Aug 2020, 15:43

oh boy and welcome from UK

The first thing i am asking here, wwas the cTLI(EPITEST ) Carried out after a food fasting of at LEAST 8 hours, they have changed the advice to 8 hours from 12, but I still think 12 hours is better

whereabouts on her body is she tender ? this could be a bad attack of small intestinal dysbiosis which I know to be VERY painful, my friend has EPI ,and said the pain from this gut inballance is worse than the worst period pain you can have !

has the vet prescribed any antibiotics, did they do a test for b12, if you have answered this I apologise, I see Olesia has suggested Tylan, and it works

before you got her was she like this with her previous owner

my cat had low thyroid and would fight you for food, and got very aggressive, removal of the thyroid, and one normal cat

I really feel for you


Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

sienna11711

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by sienna11711 » 07 Aug 2020, 11:56

Hi all,

Thank you SO much and also thank you Olesia for the e-mail- I don't seem to get any notifications when people reply to my posts and I hadn't checked the actual website.

The cTLI test was done the morning of her dental surgery so she had fasted since 6 pm the evening before and probably had blood drawn around 9 am. B12 and folate normal.

She is tender towards the back underneath specifically but with a new person can be sensitive overall about being pet (which is understandable). With my brother (previous owner) there were no issues, he never even had to muzzle her at the vet. When I got her (and she is very famiilar with me) the first vet visit was awful and now a muzzle is required. She has seemed to relax more as she's gotten comfortable with the vet but she will still do a low growl or jolt quite a bit when they lift her up or feel her body condition.

I totally feel that it is something internal, I worked with an animal behaviorist over email and skype during the quarantine total lockdown to try and narrow down issues, but we quickly realized that her reactivity to dogs and being touched seemed to change. Somedays shes more relaxed and unphased and other days she walks on leash like she's being stalked from behind- frantic, constantly looking around. She also always wants to sniff dogs, but when they approach her to sniff her behind, she corrects them by nipping lightly (like how a playful puppy does). She is not reactive to dogs who pay her no mind and she has only nipped at people getting super close to her, but she absolutely is a lap dog with everyone and loves the attention and once the person moves away from her after the nip she's right back to snuggling and offering kisses. I really don't think she is afraid of people because in the elevator she is always keen to sniff and interact with neighbors and leans against them. It really seems like she just does not want to be touched in certain places bc of pain. This issue is actually tough for me because I was looking to hire a dog walker who lives in my building just for letting her out to potty if I'm out longer than expected, but A. terrified she will nip them because they would have to lean close to leash her and B. they'd have to deal with strange walking habits, poop eating, and reactivity/fearfulness

After dental surgery the vet said wet food for 10 days so she gave me Hills science diet I/D for dogs with IBD and same thing-- orange slimy poop and she was even more ravenous. Put her back on kibble and soaked it and poop was immediately normal. Just to be extra clear, she only has orange slimy poop with fresh food and actual meat. For example, in the past when she was on an antibiotic for a uti that made her super nauseous, the vet said boiled chicken and rice-- same exact result. I do feel that she probably has pretty weak digestion that just can't handle fresh food, especially animal fat. The vet insists there's not much going on besides a sensitive digestive system, but also, since her poop is so normal on what she eats now (Victor dog food) that nothing should be changed.

Her poop has always been solid and mostly brown on kibble, though when I did first adopt her she pooped a lot more than she does now. I imagine because kibble does have easy to digest starch, which she does best with.

She was diagnosed with hypothyroidism for a year, but the levothyroxine did nothing for her "symptoms", and these newer symptoms (ravenous hunger and thirst) have really heightened in the last two months. We stopped giving levothyroxine in December 2019. We recently put her back on trazodone and her T4 jumped from 0.5 to 1.4. I think the stress relief is improving her thyroid function but I agree, Olesia, that it is not just anxiety. My vet also suggested separation anxiety but my dog is clocked out on our pet camera when I leave, as always, and acts frantic when I come home, rushing to her water bowl and gulping it and licking at her food bowl.

The enzymes I'm giving her now are just general digestive enzymes but I ordered a different brand on amazon with extra pancreatic support with some great reviews from EPI dog owners. I am keen to try the hydrolyzed food but I see that it has 14.5% fat, maybe too high?

sienna11711

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by sienna11711 » 07 Aug 2020, 12:09

I also forgot to mention that we worked with a canine nutritionist that formulated an extremely digestible, low fat fresh cooked food diet and it was a nightmare. I think I would've had to spend like $400 a month for the amount of food she needed to feel satisfied. We've also tried various sensitive tummy kibbles, but there's really no difference.

Lastly, I was feeding her 3 cups of food for a while, and bc she seemed so hungry the vet suggested just giving her more, so I upped it slowly to 4 cups, and her reactivity SKYROCKETED, it was so unreal how much more anxious she got. I literally had to cut our walks short because even seeing a dog 100 feet away would send her into a frenzy. I went back down to 3 cups and she returned to her previous anxiety level. That's what really made me think- something about what she is eating or how she is digesting it is making her extremely stressed and also super hungry.

User avatar
Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by Jean » 07 Aug 2020, 16:51

regarding no notification

Can I ask, are you ticking the box below your post to the left

"notify me when a reply is posted"

if you are , check your spam box

but let me know

Jean

Forum Director
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by Olesia711 » 07 Aug 2020, 20:15

Hmmm.... so basically any fresh wholesome real foods causes issues with your dog..... and yet low fat kibble agrees with your dog. Translation to me is the same conclusion that you are coming to.... the fiber/carbs agree with your dog.

This is really a conundrum! Now i am REALLY stumped!

Have you ever tried giving your dog Quercetin or Boswellia? to help with possible IBD? Instead of changing foods since the dry kibble works?
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sienna11711

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by sienna11711 » 08 Aug 2020, 09:16

I can definitely try that. To be totally honest, as of late she's actually been slightly straining a bit. So over time, her bowel movements have changed, and luckily she no longer regurgitates kibble hours later. I suppose if the pancreas/fat issue was the main thing then anything low fat would make her feel much better. Her food right now is 18% fat and I ordered one that is 10% to see. When I've given her fish oil or anything like that in the past she would get so nauseous and sometimes vomit. Perhaps poor fat digestion, low thyroid function, and excessive hunger/stress is just a symptom of a larger issue, it's just so strange that it doesn't really show up directly in traditional IBD ways- vomiting, lack of appetite, diarrhea, etc.

Did you ever have your dog tested for their vitamin D levels? I know low vitamin D is common with those with gastrointestinal issues and since it is fat soluble and my dog can't seem to process that, maybe it's creating some sort of vicious cycle? IDK how vitamin D works for dogs though, I know it's super important for humans.

sienna11711

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by sienna11711 » 08 Aug 2020, 09:29

Also forgot to add that the trazodone definitely helps her relax more and makes the problem way more manageable for me. My vet said it's meant to be temporary, and concluded I needed to see a behaviorist because she is just a very stressed out dog. So if we don't see the behaviorist, she won't keep giving us trazodone, and the behaviorist of course costs ~$300, but I feel like it will be useless. I can't imagine something stressing her out to this extent is purely behavioral when it all seems to be centered around hunger. Obviously I know the trazodone is just a bandaid, but it's a really good bandaid until I can figure out what's wrong, it just sucks I'll have to go through yet another expensive avenue.

Our lifestyle has done a serious 180. When I first adopted her she had no separation anxiety, slept in with me, lounged around all day, super relaxed about feeding times, had a dog walker for when we were gone during the day, went on vacation and she was just fine with only my parents, used to do hiking trips and beach trips, went out of state on vacation and stayed with family. Now the hunger is so paramount that taking her on excursions and doing lots of exercise makes her issues worse. Now I'm being woken up at 7 am everyday, absolutely must be home at strict feeding times, have no personal space because she is stalking me to be fed, she doesn't play as much, no more outdoor trips unless we keep it VERY low exercise, but the reactivity to dogs is worse so it's always a stressful time... It really feels like I'm losing my dog as I knew her :cry:

User avatar
Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by Jean » 09 Aug 2020, 08:20

what were the results of the "normal" b12 and folate and cTLI
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

sienna11711

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by sienna11711 » 09 Aug 2020, 18:01

Attached here :)
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Screen Shot 2020-08-09 at 6.01.09 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-08-09 at 6.01.09 PM.png (67.65 KiB) Viewed 3332 times

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: My dog's isssues are running my life and my vet doesn't think there is a problem

Post by Olesia711 » 09 Aug 2020, 19:15

thanks for sharing the test results.... i just read some research that just came out on Quercetin + a Prebiotic to address SID..... of course, more research needs to be done, but i found this rather interesting...... might want to ask the vet if it would be okay to give "Quercetin (ask how much) with a prebiotic like Slippery Elm powder or if the vet wants to suggest something else. THis might help.

But also, based on what you wrote today about how the dog is acting now vs. before... it almost sounds like he is resource guarding and the resource is you. SO.... to me....it almost sounds like something IS going on with your dog ... tummy is tender, etc.... and because he doesn't feel good... he development some behavioral issues and now you have to correct them....(Just a FI.. been there/done that)

I don't see where you have to pay so much money for a behaviorist, but rather contact https://apdt.com/ for a trainer in your area to assess your dog and then research and read, read, read on how to correct it.

Little personal story... i had 3 dogs. 2 of them were females and they hated each other. Fought, drew blood, blah, blah, blah....you get the picture. BUt they were both wonderful and sweet dogs ....4 yrs old and 2 yrs old......except for not getting along with each other and other dogs... well short story, i contacted 11 APDT trainers cause they believe in non-compulsory training and so do i. Every single one told me there was no hope, i needed to get rid of one of the females, even my friends said the same thing. WELL i refused to do that and continued looking for help. The 12th trainer i contacted was a touch army dude who worked with throw away dogs and prisoners... he came over assessed the situation and identified the problem... it was ME!!!! i was sending the wrong signals and encouraging the resource guarding behavior in short i was too quick to tell the dog "good dog" so they were getting the wrong signal.. SO he showed me some techniques and i read and read and read.

i changed my behavior, and these two dogs learned to live with each other and NOT resource guard me. My heart dog, Izzy, just passed away at 15 years old (she was the resource guarder) and Lulu the other female is over 13 now...

Here is a picture to show you how they were ALWAYS in competition with each other over me and everything!
Image
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typical Iz Lu competition-r.jpg
typical Iz Lu competition-r.jpg (97.12 KiB) Viewed 3329 times
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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