New to Epi...and very worried

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
zoetaylor96
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Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Washington
Pet name: Archie
My name: Zoe

New to Epi...and very worried

Post by zoetaylor96 » 29 Aug 2020, 18:35

Hello, my 7 month old puppy with just diagnosed with EPI and I feel as though the $1000 of dollars in tests haven't gotten me very far. The doctors do not seem to have much advice and I feel like I'm watching my baby slip away from me. We noticed his bowel movements become extremely water-y and greasy about 3-4 weeks ago and somehow in that time he has lost upwards of 10 lbs. Since taking him into the vet, we received his test results.

Trypsin-like Immunoreactivity - Result 0.4
Cobalamin - Result 226
Folate - 11.0

The vet sent us home with some form of an enzyme powder, but I'm not entirely sure of the brand because the bottle doesn't say. We have been giving him 1/2 teaspoon every morning just sprinkled on top of his food. I will attach a photo. They also sent us home with what I believe are b12 supplements that we have been giving him every 12 hours. Food wise, we have switched to the Merrick BackCountry Grain free 96% Real Beef formula that has a Crude Fiber of 3.00%.

We have been doing this now for about 3-4 days and I have not noticed a single difference. I'm so worried that there is more I could be doing.

As for his behavior, he still is the energetic pup he's always been. He does seem to be sleeping heavier. He normally will wake up to just about anything however he has become a lot heavier of a sleeper. He has not been vomiting. He still is VERY excited for food, almost too much. He has a couple of days were he was extremely aggresive over his food which is very unlike him. He since has seem to calm down a bit. In a panic to help him, I ordered 'enzyme miracle" which we have yet to try out. Also, I have been adding. some salmon oil on top of his meals because his skin seems to be very dry. Along with that I purchased some Digestive Enzyme & Probiotic treats, which I have held off on giving him since being sent home with the powder and pills from the vet.

Please tell me what I am doing wrong. Why is he not gaining weight?
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zoetaylor96
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Washington
Pet name: Archie
My name: Zoe

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by zoetaylor96 » 29 Aug 2020, 18:39

this is a photo of him as of yesterday
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littlegirl_peaches
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Posts: 29
Country: United States
State: Utah
Pet name: Peaches
My name: Shasta

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by littlegirl_peaches » 29 Aug 2020, 19:00

I don't have any words of wisdom other than you're not alone. When I first saw the picture, I thought I was in the wrong place and looking at my puppy's pictures!

I don't want to take over your thread so I'll create my own but I too am just getting started on this journey with Peaches my wonder pup. I can't tell what the amount of meds that the doc told you to use 1/2 teaspoon but you may want to do some more research. My pup is only 24 pounds now and doc prescribed 1 tsp per meal. It's should be to the food weight I know. Everything I've read is you should be feeding at 1.5 normal when first starting to help puppy recover weight.

Also you shouldn't be feeding the pup anything that you don't put the enzymes on at least that seems to be the going idea.

Good luck!
Herding is groovy,
Peaches
Heeler/Lab mix
DOB: 02/14/20 (6.5 months)
DX: 08/27/20 with EPI. Trypsin = 1.0
Weight PreDX: 28 lbs :: Current Weight: 24 lbs :: Height: 19 in. at shoulder :: Chest at widest: 20 in. :: Waist/Hip: 16 in.
Current Diet - RAW: Darwin's Natural Instinct
Waiting on Enzymes 09/01/20. Can't find local raw pancreas.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3922
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Olesia711 » 29 Aug 2020, 21:22

Hello Zoe and so sorry you are going through all of this.... reading your post brought me back 14 years ago, when my gal was first diagnosed.... TWO WEEKS after doing everything right (or so we thought) there was not one ounce of improvement..... and then we changed one itty bitty thing and within 24 hours, my dog had normal poos and we started our healing journey... of course there were set backs over time, but once you understand how to manage EPI, you learn how to manage the bumps... SO............. thank you for all the info you provided.... it helps we know some of what you are doing. I will list what you need to start with.

1. The powdered enzymes.... check to see what the label says for ingredients and post here. First i want to make sure you have the correct type of enzymes (porcine, not plant). Second i need to know what the USP units are. For the powder enzymes.... you should see on the label something that says
33,600 to 71,400 USP of Lipase (needed to digest fats and oils)
280,000 to 495,000 USP of Protease (needed to digest proteins)
280,000 to 495,000 USP of Amylase needed to digest carbohydrates
Give 1 tsp per 1 cup of food, add enough liquid to make sure the enzymes are moistened in the food, let sit for 20 minutes. then serve.

2. The food you are feeding sounds appropriate. Serve 150% of what is required BUT serve in smaller meals. 3 or 4 meals a day (instead of 2) is ideal, if you can do this with your schedule.

3. THe Metronidazole the vet gave you is an an antibiotic and your vet gave it to you to treat SID. My guess is that this could be the main problem. It isn't working. THis is what happened to me and my dog. We thought for 2 whole weeks the enzymes were not working... but they were! the problem was SID, which displays in bad poo. My vet called me every day to ask if there was any improvement yet. Finally he said stop the Metronidazole and let's try Tylam (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder) antibiotic. Withint 24 hours, we had normal poo.! I don't know if this is the problem with your situation, since i do not know if you have the right enzymes and are preparing things correctly... but this is a possibility of why things may not be going according to plan. In any case... call your vet and ask him to swap out the Metro for Tylosin Tartrate https://www.medi-vet.com/VetOne-Tylosin ... /19172.htm. THe dosing instructions are here: https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

4. The B12. They used to advise cyanocobalamin injections.... however, now research has proven that high dose B12 pills work. We strongly recommend Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 over other B12 brands simply because this particular product uses 1000mcg Methylcobalamin B12, 800mcg Folate and 400 mg Intrinsic Factor. This often works better than the injections and it's cheap too. https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

I hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

zoetaylor96
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Washington
Pet name: Archie
My name: Zoe

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by zoetaylor96 » 29 Aug 2020, 22:33

I’m now looking at what the vet gave us, and I’m not even sure if it’s enzymes or probiotics? We were told both b12 and enzymes, however these look like probiotics?

I see “VetriScience Proline” multistrain probiotic powder.

We also have enzyme miracle which I’m almost positive is plant based? Below are the ingredient details.

Protease - 21,000
Amylase - 3500
Diastase - 1500
Lipase - 500
Protease 3.0 - 50
Protease 6.0 - 4000
Cellulase - 200
Bromelain - 120000
BetaGlucanse - 10
Peptidase - 500
Hemicellulase - 200
Calcium - 24
Magnesium - 9.7

We are now looking into what would be the correct amount of Enzymes to purchase from EnzymeDiane for a large breed dog who eats now 6 cups a day. 2 cups in am, 2 cups for lunch and 2 cups at night.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Olesia711 » 30 Aug 2020, 11:47

Yep, that's plant base enzymes.... no wonder why you aren't seeing any results.......... *sigh*
Go to EnzymeDiane... and my favorite is the 6x because it is easier to calculate (start with 1 tsp per 1 cup of food) :) https://enzymediane.com/product-category/pancreatin-6x/

The 8x is stronger so you use anywhere between 1/2 to 3/4 tsp to 1 cup of food

SO it is really up to you which one you get and/or how much at once. I always got 1 kilo. But some folks like to start with just 1/2 a kilo.

Again. Up to you.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3922
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Olesia711 » 30 Aug 2020, 11:58

I personally like VetriScience.... but i used their "vitamin" products....
SO... i may be looking at the wrong product, but it looks like this product has L-Theanine in it (which i again personally like) and it has B1... but neither will tackle the low B12.

For B12, go to WOnderlabs and order the Pet Factor B12.... your dog has low B12 and needs to be started on proper B12 meds ASAP. https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688
90 caps/$14. give 1 a day (for now)

REgarding a probiotic.... i would simply call the vet and ask for a script for Proviable probiotics. Or you can just order some from CHEWY.. but your vet has to approve it:
https://www.chewy.com/nutramax-proviabl ... /dp/101471

AND.... since you were not given the proper porcine enzymes... in light of this i would ask the vet to swap out the Metro for Tylosin Tartrate
https://www.medi-vet.com/VetOne-Tylosin ... /19172.htm ... BUT.... hold off on giving the Tylosin.... first see how well the correct enzymes work... if the stools are still loose lets say after 3 to 5 days after being on the correct enzymes, given the correct amount and prepared properly .. if you STILL do not see any improvement... THEN start giving the Tylosin.

I know this probably sounds confusing... but once you have all the right tools to work with, you often have to try things once at a time to figure out things. Symptoms of EPI and SID are almost identical... so it can get confusing... but we'll work with you as best we can. Many people will swear that the proper enzymes are not working, and yet they are, but what they are observing is that the SID is out of whack and then have to get that under control too :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Jean » 01 Sep 2020, 04:30

Good morning from the UK

firstly, I am disappointed that your vet hasnt explained things properly, and handed out plant enzymes

However, you are here and we can map your journey

As Olesia has said, Enzyme Diane does discounted enzymes , and Wonderlabs do b12 which is essential to digestion

It might be worth while contacting the vets for an explanation as I am sure you have paid for this consultation and medication

Please feel free to print anything from this site to share with your vet

ALL food has to be enzymed, and the rule if thumb is 1 teaspoon of Dianes 6x enzymes to 1 cup of kibble, we recommend 50% over and above the recommended amount on the bog of food for the weight the dog SHOULD be, and feed maybe 3 times a day or more if you can fit it into your regime

Keep a journal record everything

I really feel for you, My Kara was so pitifully thin to start with, but we determinedly carried on

Which food are you feeding

The dogs seem to do better with 4 or less percent of fibre, and they seem to be intolerant of chicken, and poultry fat

Let us know

J
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1372
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 01 Sep 2020, 13:48

Zoe, I am crying reading your post, brought back to my experience of over a year ago. I really love my vet, but she was in over her head & caused me to spend a bunch of money unnecessarily. She did direct me to another vet, though, who fixed us right up. And while he did get Tucker on the right track, his products were over the top expensive, like a monthly car payment. Joining this group, I have learned how to have an EPI dog on a budget, and more importantly, how to do it right. Hang in there. Ask your questions, and don't be shy. And please keep us posted on your journey.---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3922
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to Epi...and very worried

Post by Olesia711 » 01 Sep 2020, 15:37

Ahhh Pam, thank you so much for your words of encouragement to Zoe..... and for your kind words about Epi4Dogs and our staff.

We've all been there and it is scary! And even more scary when one is not given correct advice/products or when recommended products that, although correct are so expensive that they make it almost impossible to take care of an EPI dog because of cost................ This is why Epi4Dogs was started ... to help others better navigate taking care of an EPI dog (or cat). :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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