New to EPI: Willow and Jen

[jilbert57]

Good morning. I would go along Pams advice but not drain the water. The water makes a gravy with enzyme to distribute it evenly on the food, as you stir one last time before serving to coat all kibble.

The grain in the food is surely something to visit. Grains can interfere with the action of the enzymes and make them less efficient.

Are you supplementing B12?

For the SE I add a small amount of water to food bowl, add SE to water, stir and let set to gel up. Both my dogs lap it up plain. I see results in 2 to 3 days. I would say you should see results in 4 days. It coats the tract so should be pretty quick.

Sticks can get stuck. We live where pets cannot be outside without us so we know what they get ahold of usually to chew on.

Jill

[Willow&Jen]

Pam - point taken about the water! Thank you!

Jill - thank you! I am looking at the Sportdog food as it seems to be popular around these parts. Shame that it appears to be double the expense of our old Purina Proplan. Also a little concerned about making my older aussie Teddy jeolous by feeding him grain inclusive while feeding Willow something new. They are very insistent that we treat them even-steven.

Not currently supplementing B12 as her test results seemed acceptable but do plan retesting them in the intermediate future.

[Tuckaboo Pam]

I actually use bone broth instead of water, but I didn't want to overwhelm you!--P

[Madelon]

Hi - sorry for the late welcome but welcome to our EPI family. There are a few things that stand out to me: not supplementing B12 and using a grain inclusive food. While your EPI dog might have had a decent B12 at diagnosis - EPI dogs are not able to maintain their B12 levels without supplementing. They need their B12 on the higher side of normal 600+. You can either do shots or use the WonderLabs B12 pills. I did not do the shots as my dog is dog reactive and going to the vet every week was not an option so I just ordered the WonderLabs B12 and never looked back Low B12 can affect weight, mood, appetite and poop! So I highly recommend starting to supplement B12 right away.

My second recommendation would be to change foods. There is no need for prescription food unless your dog has another underlying condition and most EPI dogs do not do well with grains because they can interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes. There are lots of affordable options out there - just stick to grain free 4% fiber or less and try to avoid peas and legumes - buy small bags until you find the right one for your dog.

We recommend trying the right dose of enzymes, B12 and food before anything else for treating SID, then if still dealing with SID - which it sounds like you are - we recommend trying the Slippery Elm or Proviable and then if that doesn't work we recommend a 45 day course of Tylan antibiotics.

I highly recommend using our "carrot trick" - chop or grate up some carrot and put it in the food - make a notation in your log of the date and time of the carrot and then watch for it in the poop - it could appear anywhere from 12-72hrs later and be in more than one poop - this will tell you your dog's transition time and help you figure out if the change you made is working.

Hang in there - EPI is a little overwhelming in the beginning but it soon becomes your new routine

[Willow&Jen]

Regarding hairballs:

Hello again! Willow's poop continues to be a roller coaster. For the first few days of this week, her poops seemed quite good.

But I think she is grooming excessively and it is causing hairballs in her poo. She is not obsessive/none stop about it, but once and a while, I catch her really biting at her fur And this behavior seems new. She did have an emergency bath a few weeks ago after rolling in some poo, and I used my own Pantene shampoo. Possibly caused by that, or something else. She did disembowel a poly-filled toy at the end of October.

When she had her scary bout of sloughing her bowel at the end of October, I started checking her poo contents. I did notice hairballs as well as other items (bits of wood or mulch). But mostly it was fur. Or possibly polyfill from a recently disemboweled toy. The vet put her on Albon, I fed her eggs and sweet potatoes e for a week, and things improved.

Then this Thursday, her poop was soft, smelly, and yellow, again and contained an inch long hairball. The following night she had a coughing fit (in retrospect, I think she may have been trying to cough up a hairball??) while exercising. Later, her poop was again smelly, yellow, and soft contained a small hairball the size of a fingernail with a sliver of wood mulch. Tonight, there was a two inch hairball in her poop.

As far as food - she is still on the Royal Canin GI - transition was delayed because of the sloughing and then we ran out of the old enzymes and the switch to Enzyme Diane seemed cause a few days of diarrhea, which subsequently cleared up. The plan was/is to begin transitioning to Sport Dog - Herding tomorrow.

We already have a vet appointment scheduled for Tuesday to retest her cobalamin, and I plan on bringing this up as well. She is currently not taking supplements, since the levels from her original test at the beginning of October seemed acceptable.

What do you think about these hairballs? What should I do?

[Tuckaboo Pam]

My first thought is that hairballs & mulch shouldn't cause diarrhea, and may well show up in poo because they are not digestible. Tucker has been biting/licking a bit more lately, and I have taken to giving him a Benadryl from time to time. Some nasty things bloom in the fall, so it may be allegies. As a last resort, there are some nasty-tasting things you can spray on the area he's grooming, made specifically to stop the licking.

The runny stool, though---Is Willow's vet addressing SID? All EPI dogs have it, I have learned on this forum, and it's an important element of the total treatment. Some of us use Tylosin Tartrate, initially, for 45 days, and then slowly wean off. There is also a slippery elm treatment, which you can learn about here on EPI4, and that is not a prescription.

Well, that's all I've got. Hope it helps!---Pam

[Willow&Jen]

Hi Pam, thanks for your thoughts! We had been taking Slippery Elm for several weeks - but last week we stopped because My impression is that SE is not intended long tem use and could cause mucus to build up to much... but I just added it to her food again this morning. I am going to express strong interest to the vet about Tylosin tomorrow...

The hairball thing is weird. Possibly unrelated yet there seems to be a co-incidence. My thought was perhaps the furball got stuck in her gut for a while thereby causing tummy upset. Aussies have a double coat and there are always strands of fur in my dogs’ poop, but I’ve never noticed furballs (but nor have I really pulled the poop apart until now...so who knows).

By the way- Pam as I recall you feed Tuckaboo Sport Dog Herding... Yesterday I started transitioning Willow off her prescription food onto that. I notice the kibbles are much darker brown than what I have fed before. Should I expect a change in poo color, do you think?

[Tuckaboo Pam]

YES!!! The poo will be darker, and much easier to spot amid the brown fall leaves. A nice thing about that brand of food is, you can email the company & someone will answer your questions promptly. I hope things go well! Now, I didn't have luck with slippery elm, but many others do, and I believe they stay on it longterm. Maybe Madelon or Olesia could clear that up for you. Nice talking to you!---Pam & Tucker

[Madelon]

Hi Jennifer. I have not heard about issues with being on Slippery Elm long term and mucous build up. Doc has been on it going on 3years now - he gets 1/2tsp twice a day - I mix it with a tablespoon or two of water and then put directly on the food. I actually would think hairball/mulch could definitely cause an upset stomach and thus affect the poop. I too feed Sport Dog Food Elite and yes it does make the poop darker.

[Willow&Jen]

Thanks for the correction re. Slippery Elm.

These days Willow seems to be doing quite well, except that she frequently vomits (several times a week, sometimes more than once a day). Sometimes it is a tiny bit; sometimes it is quite a bit. It is always liquid - usually light brown/tan liquid. Once she threw up a tiny hairball with a small bit of wood, but that is the only time I've noticed anything other than liquid in it. The timing varies (i.e., it is not first thing in the morning on an empty stomach). There is never any heaving. It just...spurts out. I have a few theories (below) as to what is going on and would appreciate any thoughts.

1. B12. I had Willow's B12 retested recently and it is 512. Could this be considered low? Could this possibly cause the vomiting?
2. I'm feeding too much. I switched her to Sport Dog Herding (Buffalo) recently (not sure if it's coincidence or the food, but it seems to have helped the poop). I've recently realized I'm feeding her quite a bit more than recommended. Based on the website, a sustaining amount would be about 1.5 cups. I am feeding 2.25 cups.
3. Polyphagia. She still loves to chew sticks and grass (I try to prevent but not always possible) and the smell of her poop when it passes is quite rancid. I know it's not doing her tummy any favors. Thankfully she is no longer copraphagic.

To circle back to the Slippery Elm. Can you tell me if I'm feeding it right? I mix her kibble (.75 c), enzymes (.75 tsp), and water (enough to cover). Then after marinating, I add 1/4 tsp Slippery Elm and mix right before giving the food to Willow.