Is it EPI?

[maddiefleming]

My dog Echo is a young 10 month old German Shepard. Unfortunately, I do not have enough to afford the EPI test as of right now but my veterinarian is pretty certain Echo has EPI: she has the awful diarrhea, is constantly losing weight no matter how much she eats, is always starving, seems more lethargic, etc.

I have tried Enzyme Diana and it has been a few days but she doesn't seem to be gaining any weight. The poops aren't awful but they still aren't anywhere near normal? Does anyone have any advice?

Also, if there are any raw feeders out there... do you have to make sure the food is room temp/warm/not cold and then add warm water and enzymes? I made the mistake of just taking the food right out of the fridge and adding enzymes... realizing that it might not work because the food was so cold it probably just made the water cold and therefore the enzymes weren't able to activate and digest the food.

Does it take time to start noticing weight gain?

ALSO please help. Does anyone have dogs that have EPI and are extremely itchy? Are those correlated in any way shape or form? She is losing hair like crazy and it is keeping her up at night and causes her to wake up in the morning.

Please anything would help.

[jilbert57]

Hi Maddie, how long has Echo been on Dianes Enzymes? The enzymes are only one part of the puzzle to resolving Epi.

Enzymes, a Diet that is grain free and 4% or less fiber, Antibiotic for SID/SIBO(overgrowth of bad bacteria in the gut, and B12(B12 levels of 600 or higher must be maintained)

It takes all of these to be implemented to have a good coat, weight gain and good consistent poops.

Itchiness could be allergies or shedding.

Please look on the forum and read the information to learn more.

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guide-usa/

There is a test you can do at home that indicates if your dog is Epi or not. If you do the test somewhere down the line you will want to have the vet to the cTli blood test, which will 100% conform if it is Epi.


https://epi4dogs.com/schebo-fecal-test/

Jill

[Barb]

Hello, Maddie. Welcome to you and Echo. I love her name.

The beginning stage is the hardest because you are dealing with so many things at once and you are worried about your pup. Try not to be too overwhelmed. It will get better. As Jill said, it takes balancing all four components of treatment before you will see optimum results. Grain-free food, B12, enzymes, and antibiotics.

You may not see weight gain right away, especially since she has only been on the the enzymes for a short time. You are right about the temperature needing to be room temp for the enzymes to be activated. But I will let the raw feeders answer those questions.

Have you started her on any B12 supplements yet? Almost all dogs have low B12 at the beginning. You can order from Wonderlabs and start her on "Pet Factor" B12 ( they are very reasonable). The B12 pills have to have Intrinsic Factor to be successful. Or you can ask your vet to do injections each week, but the B12 Pet Factor pills might be more convenient. When you eventually get the cTLI test, you can ask that the cobalamin (B12) and Folate be tested also. Getting her B12 level up will also help with her appetite and weight. It is really important.

One of the best tools recommended to us at the beginning was a log/journal. Record everything you give Echo each day, the amounts, and the resulting poos. this helped us keep our sanity and also gave us lots of information about what was working and what needed to be adjusted. You can download a blank log form from the products page or just use a note book.

We know it is a lot of information to absorb at first, but once you get things balanced it will get easier.

Ask as many questions as you have.

Keep breathing .

Barb

[maddiefleming]

Barb,

Thank you so much for your message. I almost teared up. This has been so hard and it is so hard watching Echo constantly lose weight, I can see almost all of her ribs, and her poops have been bad since I've gotten her. I have her on enzymes... I think one issue I just realized was the food was cold when serving so it probably deactivated the enzymes even when I mixed it with hot water. I am starting to warm up the food to make sure it is room temperature, then I am going to add enzymes with warm water (I believe I am supposed to add with warm water to activate it correct?). She just seems never satisfied and just looking at her makes me so sad because she is like a skeleton. I also don't know if this is related but she is SO ITCHY. Like her hair is so thin and she is starting to get bald spots and it makes me so so sad. I am taking her soon to test for allergies but heard coat issues could be related to B12 or SIBO/SID.

Furthermore, I have not started her on B12 but just ordered some about an hour ago from the awesome website referenced. I am excited to start that. My one question with antibiotics is that antibiotics are immune suppressing so I am hesitant about that in general for the rest of her life. Have you seen results with consistent probiotics at all?

THANK you so so much for all the support. I needed this message more than anything. I appreciate you so much. I am trying to upload a picture of her so you all can see how cute Echo is and how much she means to me.

[maddiefleming]

Barb,

Thank you so much for your message. I almost teared up. This has been so hard and it is so hard watching Echo constantly lose weight, I can see almost all of her ribs, and her poops have been bad since I've gotten her. I have her on enzymes... I think one issue I just realized was the food was cold when serving so it probably deactivated the enzymes even when I mixed it with hot water. I am starting to warm up the food to make sure it is room temperature, then I am going to add enzymes with warm water (I believe I am supposed to add with warm water to activate it correct?). She just seems never satisfied and just looking at her makes me so sad because she is like a skeleton. I also don't know if this is related but she is SO ITCHY. Like her hair is so thin and she is starting to get bald spots and it makes me so so sad. I am taking her soon to test for allergies but heard coat issues could be related to B12 or SIBO/SID.

Furthermore, I have not started her on B12 but just ordered some about an hour ago from the awesome website referenced. I am excited to start that. My one question with antibiotics is that antibiotics are immune suppressing so I am hesitant about that in general for the rest of her life. Have you seen results with consistent probiotics at all?

THANK you so so much for all the support. I needed this message more than anything. I appreciate you so much. I am trying to upload a picture of her so you all can see how cute Echo is and how much she means to me.

[maddiefleming]

Jill,

Echo has only been on enzymes 6 days. And yes for sure learning about all the puzzles and possible things that are needed to balance EPI treatment. I just ordered B12. She gets probiotics every day from raw goat milk (has all the digestive enzymes a dog needs and a plentiful amount of probiotics as well) She eats raw which has max 2% fiber.

I took a look at the quick links and appreciate it. Have her on a herbal supplement for environmental allergies but am not noticing a difference. Might have to look into food allergies soon.

Trying save up for the cTli blood test, I just cannot financially afford it right now.

Thank you so so much.

Best,

Maddie

[Olesia711]

Hi MAddie,

So sorry Echo is dealing with all of this and you have to watch and wonder what in the world is going on... it can be SOOOooo hard until you find answers .
THe not so easy thing about EPI, if this is EPI, is find the right balance of the recommended protocol. The good thing about EPI is that you can try all the recommended EPI protocols on a temporary basis and it will not hurt your dog (short term of course) if your dog ends up not having EPI.

Regarding the raw food. Try to chop/mince it into very small pieces , you can warm the raw food up first and THEN when room temp, add the enzymes and mix in room temp water... let sit for 20 minutes to avoid any possible mouth sores and then serve.

Do keep a journal.... this will REALLY help you figure out what all is going on. SOme EPI dogs do have allergies or IBD so sometimes you are trying to manage two things. If you think your dog has environmental allergies... what you can do to try and give some relief (and this is cheap) is give Echo a bath with a hypoallergy shampoo and then rinse Echo with a mixture of baking soda and warm water. Just do about 25% baking soda and 75% warm water in a squeeze bottle.... squirt this all over her, let it sit on her body for a minute or 2 and then rinse and dry. It will soften her skin, kill bacteria and make her feel better for a few days. It doesn't last long, but it will give her some relief. My guess is that she is either blowing her coat from lack of nutrients (especially if this is EPI) or she has an allergy.

Goats milk is EXCELLENT ... unless she has an allergy to it, you just won't know until you either test her or try eliminating the goats mild to see if that is the problem...... unfortunately.... finding out what a dog is allergic to via the elimination process can be very time consuming

As Barb mentioned, glad you ordered the B12... cause even if you give enzymes/food, etc... if the B12 levels are low (and they often are in EPI dogs) then no matter how hard you try, they won't flourish untill they get B12.

Also.... with EPI... what you need to do is feed approximately 150% of what Echo requires until she puts most or all of the weight back on... BUT..... do not try to stuff all this extra food in two meals.... with EPI dogs (or even if this is some other gastrointestinal condition) big meals are not ideal.... but rather try feeding Echo in 3 to 4 mini meals daily. If this is EPI, you won't have to do this forever, but just until she has rebounded back to a good weight and then you can cut back on multiple mini meals and feed just twice or three times a day, whatever works.

Here is a link to the EPI LOG..... this will give you an idea of what to record so that you can figure out what helps and what hinders Echo's progress.

EPI Log 8-2017.pdf

(404.61 KiB) Downloaded 104 times

Oh... i did want to touch upon the weight gain..... with some dogs, you will see some weight coming on in a few weeks, others will take a few months, and then some others have actually taken a few years.......it all depends on the individual dog..... but hang in there, if this is EPI, it is treatable and manageable once you figure out the right balance of the recommended protocol and that is what we do here at EPi4Dogs .

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Hi Maddie. I also had a vet who was sure my Tucker had EPI, and over the past year and a half, I have learned ways to make this condition do-able for me & my boy that I love so much. Your vet may prescribe Tylan, an expensive antibiotic. If it works, and if you need to keep using it, you can buy it from a pigeon supply place for much cheaper. That, with the EnzymeDiane product, and Wonderlabs B12, plus the right food, may get you on the right track. I'm sorry I can't reread your last post, but just in case, are you mixing the enzymes, food, and room temperature liquid(I use bone broth), and allowing them to marinate for at least 20 minutes? I don't want to be redundant, so I'll leave it at that, but as others have said, please ask as many questions as you have, as often as you like. That is what we are here for. ---Pam(former Buckeye) & Tucker

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Maddie, yes, Tucker does itch, but I think he's probably allergic to something growing in my yard. When it gets bad I give him Benadryl, which seems to help.---Pam

[maddiefleming]

I would just like to say this website has saved me. Thank you to EVERYONE for posting your responses. This community really makes a different. She is still having bright yellow mucous poops even on the enzymes for about a week. GOOD NEWS IS I fundraised through social media to try and raise some money for the TLI test and I WAS ABLE TO RAISE ENOUGH. I am so so excited and already scheduled her vet appointment for next Thursday December 10th. This site will be one of the first places I share the results with. I also think I am going to get her allergies tested.

Once again, thank you to EVERYONE for this information.

One question... is there anyone out there that has tried to treat SIBO/SID without an antibiotics? Like with probiotics or other herbal medicines?

Once again, I always look forward to coming on and reading the comments and suggestions. All of this help means the world to me.

I will definitely start looking to journal.