SID in confirmed EPI Dog?

[lbarie23]

Hello Everyone - this website literally saved my dog, Kona's, life back in 2013. She had lost 1/3 of her body weight and they kept telling us it was food allergies. Once started on the enzymes and officially diagnosed with EPI, Kona has been relatively stable all these years later.

I'm back again today for some advice dealing with what I believe is SID/SIBO. She has been having some mild to moderate digestive issues for a few weeks. She would refuse to eat meals here and there and have a rumbly stomach. This past week it seems to have gotten worse. She has been throwing up and refusing to eat more. She has also had awful smelling gas. And, I'm not sure if this related, but she has been "shaky" a few times this week. Almost like she is scared of a thunderstorm.

I've been reading on this site to try to get all the information I can. We've purchased Slippery Elm powder, but it has been hard to get it into her system since she has been eating very little. I also have B12 arriving tomorrow. Her typical diet is the Canidae PURE Grain Free, twice a day. We've started mixing in the Addiction Grain Free Salmon formula. But again, she hasn't had much yet because she isn't eating much.

I would really appreciate any advice or thoughts on what might be causing these issue and what we can do to help Kona. She is my baby and I want her feeling her best! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[jilbert57]

Hi Lauryn,
Sorry to hear Kona isn't feeling well.

Sometimes as dogs get older they need to have the enzymes upped a tad. Maybe start with 1/8 teaspoon per cup of food.

You might need to slurry the Slippery Elm and use a syringe to get it in Kona. Do you have any Tylan you can use for SIBO/SID?

Also low B12 can make their appetite wane so when you get those please implement ASAP.

Jill

[Olesia711]

So sorry to hear that Kona is not feeling well. THe first thing we look at when the appetite fades... and the tummy grumbles and they start tooting (farts) a lot... is SID out of control.

SInce they now know that all dogs with EPI have SID to one degree or another, our goal is to keep it in check as best we can until they someday come up with how to fix it or not get it in the first place!

Jill gave you perfect next steps and what could be triggering this..... and many dogs afr9und the 4 or 5 year mark seem to have a flare up with SID and just as Jill suggested what they think happens is that as they have aged, their body is not processing things as well as it used to so they need a pinch more enzymes.

Use Jill's suggestions as a check list.... try and see if things improve.... BUT... just in case things do not improve (and this would be trying everything including a short course of TYlan/Tylosin Tartrate antibiotics).... if no improvement, take Kona to the vet and just have them check her over to make sure there is not an issue with her kidney... NOt saying this to scare you at all, as this really sounds like just SID, but better to be safe than sorry.

OH.... and if some or all of what Jill recommended works..... what you also might do is start giving a pre+probiotic.... at this time we are recommending PROVIABLE.... this won't cure SID, but if this pre+probiotic agrees with Kina it should help the SID situation. THe ONLY other thing we do recommend is when starting any probiotic start with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. SOme dogs will have loose stools (temporarily) if given a full dose all at once. Also....Just a FYI ... Tylan antibiotic will not kill probiotics since it is a macrolide antibiotic, it will just inhibit bacterial reproduction.... BUT if you give a different antibiotic, it will kill the good bacteria in the probiotics.... so give the probiotics at least 2 hours away from any antibiotic that is not TYlan.

[lbarie23]

Thank you so much Jill and Olesia for your detailed responses! If you wouldn't mind, I have just a few follow up questions to make sure I am on the right track:

1. How long do we give the Slippery Elm for? Assuming she improves, do we discontinue use?

2. Should we start using the probiotics with the Slippery Elm right away, or incorporate them later? Should we continue the probiotics long term?

3. Is it possible to purchase Tylan without an Rx? How long should I give the Slippery Elm to work before starting the Tylan?

Thank you again! I am so appreciative to have such a great resource for Kona.

[jilbert57]

Lauryn,
Please read this link. It discusses the use of Tylan and probiotics.
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/
You can buy Tylan from your vet(or get a RX from him) or you can buy direct from a bird supply online, a lot of time with out a RX.

Olesia gives suggestions above for probiotics and SE.

https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
https://epi4dogs.com/prebiotics-and-probiotics/

Jill

[Olesia711]

To give you a wee bit of a time line.... If Slippery Elm is going to work, you should see some sort of positive improvement within a few days (tops 3 days)... if you see no positive improvement.... then what they currently recommend nowadays is to then try a pre+probiotic and if that doesn't help then move on to Tylan..... BUT.... since Kona is a dog who has been dealing with EPI for many years and has had SID and this is a flare-up- -not a newly diagnosed EPI dog trying to get the SID under good management..... in this particular case, my thought is that you might be better off just going right to Tylan next (if the SLippery Elm doesn't work) and then about halfway thru the course of Tylan, then introduce a pre+probiotic. and hopefully this will (1) take care of the current issue and (2) then introduce more bacteria and a variety of bacteria) so that hopefully you won't have to deal with any more flareups cause the gut will be in a better position with more & multiple good bacteria .

see the Tylan dosing chart on the SID Antibiotic page link Jill provided for the Tylan dosing regimen

Hope this further helps clarify things....

Please keep us posted on how things go! Hopefully you will see improvement shortly!

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Hey Olesia & Jill---You've made me decide to order some Proviable for Tucker & for Ruthie (non-epi). I quickly read through the link Jill provided, but didn't really see any dosage information....should I just start with half of what the package recommends for a 70 and a 10 pound dog, and am I giving these for life, once I start? I'm on my own as much as possible these days, with covid income, five dogs to provide for, and a vet who seems tired of our problems (hard to pay what she charges right now, too). So I am eternally grateful for the help I get from you.
---Pam

[Olesia711]

Yes, with some dogs, it is just too much of a influx of "new stuff" (different probiotic strains) introduced to their gut all at once.... and it will actually give them loose stools for a little bit and then(hopefully) straighten out .

To avoid this, we suggest starting with less than half (or half) the recommended dose on a probiotic package and then just work your way up to the full dose over the course of a week or two. This is just an extra caution step to take not because anything is harmful, but to avoid any possible temporary tummy upset when first introducing a probiotic.

A dog does not need to have EPI to have a tummy that gets upset with the initial introduction of a probiotic.... it all depends on the individual dog.

However... on the flip side.... if a dog is not having any gastro issues....then it would appear that it's gut flora is most likely well balanced for that particular dog so no need to give a probiotic. in other words, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

[Madelon]

Hi Lauryn! Sorry to hear you've had a set back. Olesia and Jill already gave you excellent advice as usual - I just wanted to add that if you do the Tylan you'll want to slowly wean off of it after 45 days. For some reason we've noticed over the years if the Tylan is cut out cold turkey the SID will flare up again. If the Slippery Elm works I personally would keep giving. My boy is on 1/2tsp twice a day for about 3years now and I have no intention of ever stopping it. Since it's all natural and good for them and inexpensive I don't see any harm in it especially if it helps. I feel the same about the Proviable - if it works for your dog and it's not too expensive I would just plan on continuing it. Also some dogs are what we call "lifers" on a small maintenance dose of Tylan - again my boy has been on 1/8tsp twice a day of Tylan for 1 1/2yrs now - he had a HORRIBLE SID flare up when we went on vacation for the first time since he was diagnosed and left him with a pet sitter - he lost almost 10lbs in 4 1/2 days and every time I tried to take him off the Tylan his poop went south.

Also, I would recommend getting the B12 tested to see where you're at. It sounds like your pup is one of the rare ones that hasn't needed B12 supplementing until now.

Please keep us posted on how things are going.