New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by jilbert57 » 23 Dec 2020, 08:55

So glad to read this good update. Sounds like Freya might have SID going on. Maybe give it a few more days on the enzymes to see if that fixes it then if not add the slippery elm in.
Here is the link from our page on Slippery elm, dosages and instructions.


https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/

Happy Birthday to Freya in a couple days!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Dec 2020, 11:39

Tis sounds like typical SID that typically happens with our EPI dogs... our goal (until they discover more) is to try and keep the SID in good control....

But first.... please go back to accurately measuring her enzymes per volume of food...
I heaping tsp is not the best way to measure.... if that amount is working.... great... but please measure what a heaping tsp really is.... 1+1/2 tsp or 2 tsps of enzymes or what. And just in case you are not measuring, measure the amount of food you are giving... (i am referring to the larger amount)

YOu may or may not be giving enough enzymes to Freya and the only way to accurately determine this is to keep records with good measurements.... that is why i am suggesting the above.

Next... yeah... it sounds like SID..... so yes, it sounds like time to try a little bit of SLippery Elm.... or.... you can try increasing the enzymes a bit... either before trying the SLippery Elm.... OR try the slippery elm next and then if you do not see any improvement after a few days on the slippery elm.... then try slightly increased enzymes and see if that helps.............

Please keep us posted.... as we will do our best to help you figure this out and find the right balance for Freya..... step by step. (as there are more steps. but things need to be tried one-at a-time....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Madelon » 24 Dec 2020, 11:25

Ditto what Olesia said - the first thing jumped out at me was the amount of enzymes being used for the amount of food.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 26 Dec 2020, 09:24

Does Pantenex require a lower dose of enzymes/food than other enzymes do, such as Diane's? We are at a 1:1 ration, and that works well for Tucker. We are currently trying to wean from a therapeutic dose of tylan, to slippery elm+proviable. for the SID. No gas lately, but still somewhat soft in the poo-poo. I really want him to take the probiotic, and I've just got him to 1/2 capsule once/day, so I'm hoping his system will adjust, and that we will be able to eventually lower the dose of tylan significantly. Thanks & Happy Boxing Day!---Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2-3 per week, slippery elm 1/2 teaspoon/day, Proviable 1 capsule/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/day. Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Olesia711
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Olesia711 » 26 Dec 2020, 11:12

No... dosing is the same with Panetex as is Enzyme Diane.... the only difference is that with EnzymeDiane... you are given the EXACT potency of the enzymes from the barrel that those enzymes were packaged from listed on the analysis sheet vs. a mass produced stamped potency label on the other....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Quixotic
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Quixotic » 09 Apr 2021, 10:15

I wanted to provide an update.

We transitioned to Royal Canin adult GSD food about a month ago since Freya was at the 15 month mark. Prior to that, as suggested, I was more precise with the enzyme measurements--1.5 teaspoons of Enzyme Diane enzymes per 2.5 cup meal. I had tried 2 tsp per 2.5 cups to see if the gurgling reduced, but after two weeks, things were still the same. So I balanced back out at 1.5 per 2.5. Poops were good and happening three to four times per day.

Transitioning to adult GSD food from puppy GSD food was like having to find enzyme balance all over again. While Freya's poop was well formed 75% of the time (yes, I slowly transitioned to the adult food over the course of one and a half weeks), it began getting a little soft at the end, occasionally puffy, occasionally mucousy, and at least once per day there were a few visible non-digested squares of kibble in her poop (approximately half the size of original). I found balance with Enzyme Diane enzymes at 2.5 tsp per 2 cups of food and have been at that level for the past three weeks. Also for the past three weeks (adding a little at a time to each meal) I have been adding 1/2 tsp of slippery elm powder to each meal (now 2 cups per meal, plus 2.5 tsp enzymes). That has addressed nearly all of the intestinal gurgling.

Freya weighed in at 51.8 pounds earlier this week and looks healthy, feels healthy, and loves fetching the ball.

Three more recent things popped up that I wanted to ask you about. First, beginning maybe a month ago, she stopped fetching. She would drop the ball at my feet, I would throw it, she would watch it, but then she went straight to the porch. Variations of this occurred (sometimes one fetch return, sometimes three, but going back to the porch regularly without getting the ball) for about a week and then stopped.

That brings the second thing, which is what appears to be a lack of stamina/energy for still being under 18 months old. Her chocolate labrador friend runs like a maniac, and Freya used to be faster than her. But really since that time of her deciding not to fetch, Freya will only run for the ball at half speed when around the other dog and sometimes won't run at all. When fetching alone, she seems to have dropped maybe 40% of her stamina during our workout sessions (and that's regardless of the temperatures which have been from 30 to 85 in that time period.

The third thing, for the past week, the first thing she does every morning when I take her out is eat grass, even before she pees. That makes me think her stomach is upset in the morning, but she hasn't puked. Her poop in the morning is still pretty perfect.

Sorry for the long update, but our semi-annual vet visit is coming up in a little over a week, and I wanted to be prepared with any suggestions the forum might have, or if this is all pretty standard. I also planned to schedule her spay within the next two months (she had her full heat from mid-February to nearly mid-March).

Edited to add: Also, wet burps. And bad breath.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 09 Apr 2021, 19:16

Hi, nice to hear from you again. I think I'm confused, because I went back & read your first post, and it looks like Freya hasn't gained much weight at all, since October. Am I reading this right?

Adding the slippery elm is a good idea, but since it hasn't cleared things up in 3 weeks, I believe the next step is to slowly add a probiotic, like Proviable (Tucker takes this). Also, I see you are following the recommended dose, but my experience is, you may have to play with that to get it right. Tucker takes 1/4 teaspoon 2X day, and he weighs 80 pounds. Then, if that's not working, maybe think about asking your vet for Tylan (antibiotic). I see your vet gave her Metronidazole earlier on, and speaking from experience, that can have longterm bad effects on the gut. But you can help her if that's the case!

Do you think she dislikes her food? Have you considered trying another food, like Sport Dog Elite? A lot of members feed this food, and dogs seem to love it. It sounds like she is run down, and it's concerning that you have seen undigested kibble in her poo. Also, do you give her B12?

OK, I'm asking more questions than I'm answering, so I will bow out, but I look forward to reading the advice you'll be getting, and I'm pulling for you & Freya. ---Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2-3 per week, slippery elm 1/2 teaspoon/day, Proviable 1 capsule/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/day. Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Olesia711
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Apr 2021, 15:35

Is Freya on any B12 supplementation?

THe lack of stamina could be because of low B12.....

please let us know if she is on any B12, if so, what kind and how much how often... and Freya's current weight.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Quixotic
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Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Quixotic » 10 Apr 2021, 18:52

Pam,
She's gained back to where she was before the EPI took hold. She's filled out more, but she is on the small side of average. She's coming up on 16 months old later this month, so she may still grow and fill out, though I'm guessing she probably won't if the last year together is any indicator.

I think she loves her food. She loves food like she never loved food before she got sick. She went finicky in her earlier age, but we were able to settle with Royal Canin with good results. I'm guessing she'd eat about anything now.

Tylan and/or a probiotic is on my list to talk about with my vet when we go in later this month. I've read many posts about that helping with the SID in our doggos.

Pam and Olesia,
We haven't done B12 at this point. That also is a topic to discuss with the vet at our upcoming visit. Freya has stayed in the 52 pound range for the past couple of months now. As said above, I don't think she'll get a whole lot bigger.

Tuckaboo Pam
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My name: Pam H.

Re: New member. 11 month old GSD with EPI

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 10 Apr 2021, 21:58

EPI dogs need B12, and their levels need to be higher than other dogs'.

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

I started Tucker on Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 with intrinsic factor, just based on info from this site. It's an integral part of the protocol.

I guess I misunderstood your comment about Freya's weight. When we started our EPI journey, Tuck weighed 60, at 4 years old. He had weighed 60 since he was 6 months old, and he just looked lean. Our vet thought he was just slim. Two years and lots of trial & error later, he weighs 80, and he looks really great.

There is a lot to learn, and many ups and downs. I hope your vet agrees that Freya needs B12, because it could be the solution to her low energy!---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2-3 per week, slippery elm 1/2 teaspoon/day, Proviable 1 capsule/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/day. Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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