Wimpy enzymes working?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Rockymountainmama
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Posts: 18
Country: United States
State: New Mexico
Pet name: Chekhov

Wimpy enzymes working?

Post by Rockymountainmama » 18 Jun 2022, 12:52

Hi everyone,
I am so appreciative of this site and its community.

Our dear sweet 19 mo. old long coat GSD, Chekhov, had intermittent loose stools his whole life, but seemed happy, healthy and strong, steadily gaining weight as he grew.

We are lucky in that he got worse suddenly and was diagnosed quickly: A couple weeks ago, he had extreme diarrhea for one week and lost 7 pounds. Vet put him on antibiotics and bland diet. When he didn't fully get better the second week(stools still loose), the vet tested for EPI so we found out fast. Lucky to have appt with a recently retired, very experienced vet who was filling in for someone! I've read a lot of horror stories when they don't think to test for this.

We are now waiting for the presctipion pancreatic enzymes to come in the mail. While waiting for the test, I went ahead and bought some inexpensive porcine pancreatic enzymes, that are extremely low in dosage (Dr. Mercola enzymes for cats and dogs). As an example, one of the enzymes is 8750 units (per tsp) compared to 388,000 in the recommended, prescription type! But weirdly, they firmed his poop up noticeably — and when I doubled the dose, the poop was even more firm. Looking almost completely normal!

Wondering....do these low-dose enzymes seem to work because the dog is JUST getting serious symptoms recently? Or, that his TLI is out-of-range but not extremely low? (it is 2.9)

Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated!
And what is it about these EPI "heart" dogs? This guy is the most loving, affectionate dog I've ever had!

Many thanks,
RMM
On 6/14/2022: TLI 2.9, Cobalamin 165, Folate 7.2. Weight went from 71 to 63 in 2 weeks.

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TrixEPIMama
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Posts: 65
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Trixie

Re: Wimpy enzymes working?

Post by TrixEPIMama » 18 Jun 2022, 13:30

I don't have a good answer for you (though I'm sure several of the EPI veterans will chime in with their voice of experience). I do have a similar situation and will be very curious to hear those experienced observations from others.

My EPI dog, Trixie, is on a minuscule dose-- just 1900 mcg a day, split between two meals -- of pure freeze-dried pork pancreas from Allergy Research Group. It just happened to be what we already had on hand for human use when our puzzled, but perceptive, vet suggested trying pancreatic enzymes.

It worked -- and very fast. And it's still working perfectly six months later.

So while this is a different substance than yours, the small miracle is nearly identical. I don't understand why such small amounts of a substance would work when common EPI wisdom says that much more is needed.

And it's not like we're dealing with "mild" cases of EPI (if there is such a thing). Trixie's TLI was less than 1 and your dog was obviously very sick.
Trixie is an Australian cattle dog or mix, likely born in the Fall of 2020. Picked up as a stray, she was already suffering undiagnosed EPI when we adopted her. Test later showed TLI <1 and cobalamin 189.

Her (non-standard) treatment is 1900 mcg of pure freeze-dried pork pancreas from Allergy Research Group per day. Also 1/4 teaspoon of slippery elm powder and 1/2 (previously one) capsule a day of WonderLabs TrinFac-B, all mixed into her food and served immediately, without the usual 20-minute wait.

We feed Canidae Angus Beef and Barley, which may not yet be the perfect food, but she's doing well and has "happy" normal poops.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Wimpy enzymes working?

Post by Olesia711 » 18 Jun 2022, 13:36

Hi Chekhov's human care-giver..... smart proactive thinking on your part. Great move!

Almost all EPI dogs will need full strength pancreatic (pig) enzymes at the beginning of treatment.... HOWEVER..... whenever a dog has to go without the proper enzymes, we recommend getting other enzymes, plant or anything, to supplement in the meantime.... to hold them over.

Based on what you mentioned... i am assuming these are plant enzymes...

PLant enzymes work on some (temporarily) but will not sustain the EPI condition.... as time passes, what will happen is that SID will all of a sudden will get out of control....so you will want to hang on to these enzymes cause theydo have a positive effect on CHekhov, but no, you do not want to give him this instead of the proper animal (pig is preferred) enzymes.
Mercole enzymes.jpg
Mercole enzymes.jpg (71.1 KiB) Viewed 320 times
To answer your other question.... that 2.9 is just a hair's breath out of "clinical" EPI range - -so you can "assume" that his pancreas is atrophying....... and your vet is correct in ordering the proper pig enzymes for your dog.

2.5 or less = clinical EPI
3.5 thru 5.7 = not clinical EPI but possible pancreatic acinar cell destruction (EPI) developing. Re-test in the near future.

If you want..... in a year... retest... but if you see Chekhov responding well to treatment, i personally wouldn't bother retesting.

What you will want to do though, is once you receive the proper porcine (pig) enzymes.. is start with 1 level tsp of enzyme powder per 1 cup of food (if dry food /kibble)... if serving wet food (canned/home-made, ground up raw) then start with 1/2 to 3/4 tsp of enzymes added to the food. Add just enough room temp water to moisten the food enough for the enzymes, mix let the enzymes sit for 20 minutes (you can try les if you want, but this is just what we typically recommend) and then serve.

Once Chekhov has nice solid poops for at least 3 weeks..... THENNNNNNNnnnnnn.... you should try reducing the amount of enzymes given with the food. What we suggest is to reduce the enzymes by 1/8 of a tsp for about 5 days.... if the poos remain solid.... then reduce by another 1/8 tsp for another 5 days..... you keep doing this until you notice that the poos start getting sloppy again. ONce that happens you know you have reduced the enzymes by 1 increment too much and go back to the amount of enzymes that maintained good poos for Chekhov.

Hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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