hi new puppy with epi

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
river66
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: river
My name: dave

hi new puppy with epi

Post by river66 » 18 Aug 2022, 05:26

hi all
we brought a american bulldog 4 weeks ago. the so called breeder told us 2 days before picking river up that she had a stomach upset and was on liquid antibiotics. the next day she told us river was eating and feeling better so we picked her up the next day saturday . well she was not better being sick and the worse diarrhea ive seen and smelt, was like blood in colour and we thought parvo. we took her to the vets on the monday and they gave anti sickness injection and more antibiotics. she was not eating or drink much.. on the Wednesday night she went down hill so we took her to emergency vets who said she was not in a good way, they kept her in on iv drip etc. we picked her up in morning to take her to or vets they kept her in twice or night and said she had very bad case of gastroenteritis and gave more anti's and gut paste. we was not happy with this vets so we took her to another vets who have been great. a scan and blood tests and they found that her small intestine is over enlarged and the results came back as epi. well that was 5 days ago she has been in the new vets everyday on fluids and they gave us cobalaplex tablets and pancrex v capsules which are to big for her to swallow easily.
my question is about food. she is so fussy to eat anything. the vets gave us royal cannie gastro food which she started to eat but gone off now. then ive given her chappie which is a bland food .
i'v spoken to a pet nutritional advisor who said they have a low fiber food 2.5% and 12% fat 50% white fish/50% vegs, fruits,herbs,botanicals
i feel the bland food is not enough for her and shes needing the nutritional additives from food.
sorry this was very long wined but im so stressed for my poor river and at my wits end trying to get her to eat
thanks dave

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2090
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by jilbert57 » 18 Aug 2022, 09:29

Hi Dave, sorry to hear your pup is having issues.
Will you please post the results of the Tli, folate and B12?
The Millies fish low fiber would be good. I can't recall if there is a lot of lentils and legumes and peas. You want a grain free little to no peas in it for diet.
Are the spheres inside the enzyme capsules enteric coated or just powder? If enteric coated you open and put on food pre meal, no incubation.
What liquid antibiotic was prescribed? Most Epi animals have SID and need a course of antibiotic.
I have asked staff from UK to help.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

river66
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: river
My name: dave

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by river66 » 18 Aug 2022, 10:43

hi jill
thank you so much for the reply back, im going back too vets in couple hrs ill get the results of them. she was on metronidazole liquid till we went back on the monday after 2 days of having her. then they gave her a 5 day course of tablets metronidazole 1/2 2 times a day
the pancrex v capsules have powered in them as she crunched one and it ended up in bowl. i dropped some food in water bowl so she washed it out her mouth
thank you again jill
kind regards
dave
.

river66
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: river
My name: dave

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by river66 » 18 Aug 2022, 16:31

hi jill

the results from the 12/8/22

spec cpl = 37
tli = 2.9
b12 =150.0
folate = 17.5

thank you
dave

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 18 Aug 2022, 19:40

Hi Dave, I am so sorry you are going through all this, and with a brand new puppy, too. Years ago, we adopted our little Scout from the shelter, and he had parvo. We had a good outcome, lucky for us; it's amazing how quickly a puppy can steal your heart.

Full disclosure, I am just a member, and I'm bad at reading results, but I can see River really needs to be supplemented with B12 with intrinsic factor. EPI dogs need to have a score over 600. Tucker's B12 score was 666, and I still supplement him.

If I understand what I am reading on the EPI page, River's tli score is on the high side for clinical EPI, but just barely. Did he fast for 12 hours before the blood draw? I am sure Jean or Patsy will be on here soon, with all kinds of tips for EPI dogs in the UK, but I just wanted to respond in the meantime.

Unfortunately, metronidazole is not the ideal antibiotic, as it wipes out the good gut flora with the bad. In the US we use Tylan. Jean & Patsy can help you with that, too. But, it's probably best not to give him any more.

I realize I am throwing out random information but I am tired & I'm just writing things that come to me. If Tucker starts losing interest in his food, I sometimes fry an over medium egg & let the yolk run through the kibble & he can never resist it. You can also supplement with meat, with fish, with cheese. Some EPI dogs don't do very well with poultry, but some are fine. I hope some of this is helpful. In the beginning EPI treatment can seem overwhelming, but once you get it down it becomes routine.

I look forward to following your progress. You and River take care----Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Patsy
Member
Posts: 264
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by Patsy » 19 Aug 2022, 03:48

Hello from Sheffield. What a desperate situation, you have done everything right and your vets are doing their best . We know that they rarely see epi , so it’s impressive that they have diagnosed it this quickly. However, we can help you with the collective experience of everyone here. It does sound like River has a complicated condition.
We all joined in desperation.
Questions…..how old is River, and what is her weight. Thanks for your test results.
B12 injections are needed, oxytetracycline is a preferable antibiotic to metro.
I don’t know anything about Pancrex v. But will look it up . What are the instructions? The dose depends on the amount of food per meal . So dogs weight and number of meals per day is vital.
Every bowl or treat needs enzymes.
My dog refused food with enzymes, they taste and smell nasty. I had to hand feed her at first, and like you found Chappie was ok at first. Any food is better than none. I was in tears. I changed from powder to lypex which is coated granules that you tip out of the capsule, so no nasty taste or smell. They are expensive but once the dog improves you can change brands. They are a lifesaver at first.
The vets recommended food is bland and nutritious but usually not suitable for our dogs.
I tempted Marti with raw minced beef or turkey or fish with normal grain free food . Enzymes mix better in soggy kibble or tinned food.
Butchers grain free tripe mix is fine though puppies need more protein .,add some meat or fish.
The enzymes in UK must not to be soaked for 20 mins. That is for the US versions. They would turn the food to digested sick..
I will check what foods are currently being sold in Pets at Home that are suitable, otherwise it’s online like Millie’s Wolfheart.
Again, the amount of enzymes are critical, so what ones the vet say and what’s on the box?i I’ll on again soon about foods.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

river66
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: river
My name: dave

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by river66 » 19 Aug 2022, 05:19

hi patsy
thank you for the reply
the vets have been great cant fault them at all , he said its new to them and he emailed a few specialist vets and one got back to him and said for us to use purina ha food and also treat her for worm infestation so shes on panacur powder for 5 days
shes on antibiotics injections in the vets and im unsure which ones they using i will ask them tonight.
the other issue i have as she is so small and skinny they said give small portions about a desert spoonful every hour but the pancrex v capsules say give with every meal. so im hoping she likes the purina dry food then i can mix one in and she can eat at her leisure i hope lol.
she is 2 months old and weighs under 5kg
i also read that a few people sprinkle very small amount of parmesan cheese over food to hide the powder smell is this ok to do if she turns her nose up at the enzymes.
cant thank you all for your help with my poor river
thank you
dave

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2090
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by jilbert57 » 19 Aug 2022, 08:55

Hi Dave, I am so happy Patsy weighed in with a lot of great advice.
Yes it is ok to use a stinky topper like parmesan cheese on the food.
I am not sure if the B12 supplement you are using contains the Intrinsic Factor or not. The IF is needed so this is what most folks use: Wonderlabs product talked about here:

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-protocol/

Also it helps to keep a daily journal to see cause and effect:

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-log/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by Jean » 19 Aug 2022, 08:57

Good morning from Liverpool

my friend had a x boxer American Bulldog totally daft dog

that is young to have EPI, would be worth having a word with the breeder as to whether any of the litter mates have it

probably wont answer though

Now Pancrex V absolutely stinks, it used to be called pancreatic vet powder, we used it for a few days couldnt stand the smell

I agree with the several meals per day if t falls into your daily life


Millies Wolheart is a great food , we used to use a teaspoon of live yogurt to mix powdered enzymes so it all sticks to the kibble,

you MUST add enzymes to everything that goes into her mouth other than medication and water

i would be temped to use another enzyme that does not smell, Panzym is one we used for 7 years

poor baby and poor you, she is likely very confused

if you would like a chat, feel free

0151 726 1468

I had this in my life for 10 years and its very manageable

as she is a puppy you might want to consider scrambled egg and mashed potato no milk but enzymed
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Patsy
Member
Posts: 264
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: hi new puppy with epi

Post by Patsy » 19 Aug 2022, 09:34

My internet is rubbish today, two answers of mine have disappeared.
she’s tiny and so young!
When she is able to eat kibble, this is ok and stocked in Pets at Home. Not pricey. I’m not sure about the nasty powder flavour.

https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets ... sultType=1

I would soak the food first then disguise the powder with cheese or tuna. Be prepared to just let her eat off your hand or the floor. Then the smell isn’t as strong.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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