To recap, we had a really nasty SIBO setback. After finding a new vet, we were prescribed 3 meds (Metro, Baytril and Tylosin). After 7 days, I stopped the Metro and Baytril; keeping only Tylosin. Tylosin is 400mg twice a day. Started a new pre/probiotic (Aventi GI), which he seems fine with. (I normally feed raw, but when he'd gone off his food, I switched to home cooked to reduce the fat).
I also started oil of oregano; but he's only had his 2nd dose today, so too early to say.
Since starting the meds, he's completely turned around! His poops are perfectly formed and look good. (Other than the orange color, they are great. The orange is either the cooked meats or the Tylosin). Not seeing any food coming out.
Sooo.. now I want to start transitioning back to raw, assuming it's not too early? I'm thinking about keeping him on the same "leaner" meats that I have been cooking; but in raw form. (I would start that in around Wednesday, when my cooked food is going to run out. With raw and cooked digested at different rates, I don't want to risk issues with gradual changes). Maybe do that "leaner raw" for a couple of weeks, before going back to my regular high fat raw? (We do know he's never had pancreatitis, so fats *should* not be an issue if SID is controlled and enzyme dose is correct....if I have understood everything correctly).
And at what point can I start reducing the Tylosin? (Go to either one 400mg dose per day, or try splitting it into roughly 200mg twice daily).
I want to start getting things back to normal, but without rocking the boat!!
UPDATE and MORE questions
UPDATE and MORE questions
Chance was my 4 legged soul mate. My mobility assist service dog. Pure yellow Lab, 75 lbs. After struggling with weight all his life, finally dx with EPI. cTLI < 1, folate and B12 very low. Fed Raw. Maintained with Creon, Garden of Life probiotic and intermittent calcium bentonite clay. (Tylosin was a big nightmare for him)!
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
Re: UPDATE and MORE questions
The course of Tylan is twice a day for 45 days then if all is good start weaning.
I am not any help on raw feeding. I am more of stay with what is working so as to get the gut in a calm state. I am sure others will chime in.
Glad the poop is looking good.
Jill
I am not any help on raw feeding. I am more of stay with what is working so as to get the gut in a calm state. I am sure others will chime in.
Glad the poop is looking good.
Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014
Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014
Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
Re: UPDATE and MORE questions
Does it have to be the higher dose for 45 days? The vet only gave me enough for a month. If I want it to stretch further, I'd have to reduce. I'm not entirely certain I could get more. I was really, really lucky to get what I got. It took me a long time to get any...which is why it got as severe as it did We can't buy any antibiotics over the counter. (Up to a year ago, we could go to a fish or bird store and grab something. But those days are over).
Chance was my 4 legged soul mate. My mobility assist service dog. Pure yellow Lab, 75 lbs. After struggling with weight all his life, finally dx with EPI. cTLI < 1, folate and B12 very low. Fed Raw. Maintained with Creon, Garden of Life probiotic and intermittent calcium bentonite clay. (Tylosin was a big nightmare for him)!
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
Re: UPDATE and MORE questions
If by higher dose do you mean the correct dose for your dogs weight?
I would give the correct dose for as long as you have it. Maybe it will be long enough. I am sorry you have to "pull teeth" to get the prescription.
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/
I see you already tried pre/probiotics.
https://epi4dogs.com/prebiotics-and-probiotics/
Jill
I would give the correct dose for as long as you have it. Maybe it will be long enough. I am sorry you have to "pull teeth" to get the prescription.
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/
I see you already tried pre/probiotics.
https://epi4dogs.com/prebiotics-and-probiotics/
Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014
Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014
Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
Re: UPDATE and MORE questions
I saw that chart. It shows he's at the recommended "start" dose. But the maintenance dose is much lower. I gather then the maintenance dose is only applicable in cases where it's required for life? Not something we should really try sooner.jilbert57 wrote: ↑11 Sep 2022, 09:33 If by higher dose do you mean the correct dose for your dogs weight?
I would give the correct dose for as long as you have it. Maybe it will be long enough. I am sorry you have to "pull teeth" to get the prescription.
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/
I see you already tried pre/probiotics.
https://epi4dogs.com/prebiotics-and-probiotics/
Jill
Like I said, I don't want to rock the boat. It sounds like you believe it would rock the boat if I can't give the full start dose for 45 days ☹ I can't be the first person here to have trouble getting prescriptions...
Chance was my 4 legged soul mate. My mobility assist service dog. Pure yellow Lab, 75 lbs. After struggling with weight all his life, finally dx with EPI. cTLI < 1, folate and B12 very low. Fed Raw. Maintained with Creon, Garden of Life probiotic and intermittent calcium bentonite clay. (Tylosin was a big nightmare for him)!
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
Rylee is Chance's successor; also pure Yellow/Fox red Lab. Started with symptoms at 8 weeks. At 6 months of age, also prescribed Creon due to suspected EPI (due to passing large amounts of undigested food). Currently suspected of blockages in pancreatic ducts. She is maintained VERY nicely on Creon and probiotics. Also raw fed.
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Re: UPDATE and MORE questions
ABSOLUTELY stay on the FULL dose of Tylan for as long as you can.
Did you show the vet the recommendations by Dr. Joerg Steiner to treat SID with Tylan for 45 days????????????
NAVC – How I Treat Small Intestinal Dysbiosis
World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress Proceedings, 2014
Jörg M. Steiner, DrMedVet, PhD, DACVIM, DECVIM-CA, AGAF
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX, USA
http://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defa ... &pid=12886
Specifically: "Antibiotics
Oxytetracycline used to be the therapy of choice for small intestinal dysbiosis, but oxytetracycline for oral use has become largely unavailable. Tylosin (25 mg/kg q12h for 6 weeks) is the new antibiotic agent of choice. Tylosin is extremely safe and is not used in humans for the most part – thus, creating resistant bacterial strains is not a big concern. In one study, a group of dogs was treated with 400 mg/kg daily for a period of 2 years and none of them developed any side-effects. The superb efficacy of tylosin has been well-demonstrated in studies from Finland. Some of those newer studies would suggest that smaller dosages may also be beneficial, but these findings will need to be verified. Some patients respond to therapy rapidly and do not have a recurrence. However, other patients do not respond to antibiotic therapy alone. If there is no marked improvement after 2 weeks of appropriate antibiotic therapy, further work-up is necessary. Some patients may respond to therapy with a complete resolution of clinical signs but may have a recurrence of clinical signs as soon as antibiotic therapy is discontinued. These patients require further diagnostic work-up. In some of these patients, a specific underlying cause of the dysbiosis can be identified and treated accordingly. However, in some patients no specific cause can be identified; and prolonged, maybe even life-long, antimicrobial therapy is required."
We only reduce the dose IF when you take the dog off of Tylan and the loose stools reappear.... then you start the Tylan course all over again, but instead of stopping completely you with draw.....slowly at the 45th day mark.
If the loose stools come back yet again.... this is when we know that the dog is a lifer... SOOOOOOO... this is when you start again full dose, for a short while, then reduce by 1/8ths to see what the lowest dose of Tylan is needed for life to maintain the dog's SID.
HOWEVER..... all this being said, what we REALLY hope for is to avoid Tylan forever and instead.... while giving Tylan... about halfway introduce good pre+probiotic... and "hopefully" this will also help improve the gut flora to where you won't have to keep doing Tylan...............
The CURRENT PROTOCOL IS:
1. give prebiotics to see if that works, if not
2. give a combo of per+probiotics (you are doing this now i think)
3. if none of the above works.... THEN do Tylan
I hope this helps a little.
Did you show the vet the recommendations by Dr. Joerg Steiner to treat SID with Tylan for 45 days????????????
NAVC – How I Treat Small Intestinal Dysbiosis
World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress Proceedings, 2014
Jörg M. Steiner, DrMedVet, PhD, DACVIM, DECVIM-CA, AGAF
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX, USA
http://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defa ... &pid=12886
Specifically: "Antibiotics
Oxytetracycline used to be the therapy of choice for small intestinal dysbiosis, but oxytetracycline for oral use has become largely unavailable. Tylosin (25 mg/kg q12h for 6 weeks) is the new antibiotic agent of choice. Tylosin is extremely safe and is not used in humans for the most part – thus, creating resistant bacterial strains is not a big concern. In one study, a group of dogs was treated with 400 mg/kg daily for a period of 2 years and none of them developed any side-effects. The superb efficacy of tylosin has been well-demonstrated in studies from Finland. Some of those newer studies would suggest that smaller dosages may also be beneficial, but these findings will need to be verified. Some patients respond to therapy rapidly and do not have a recurrence. However, other patients do not respond to antibiotic therapy alone. If there is no marked improvement after 2 weeks of appropriate antibiotic therapy, further work-up is necessary. Some patients may respond to therapy with a complete resolution of clinical signs but may have a recurrence of clinical signs as soon as antibiotic therapy is discontinued. These patients require further diagnostic work-up. In some of these patients, a specific underlying cause of the dysbiosis can be identified and treated accordingly. However, in some patients no specific cause can be identified; and prolonged, maybe even life-long, antimicrobial therapy is required."
We only reduce the dose IF when you take the dog off of Tylan and the loose stools reappear.... then you start the Tylan course all over again, but instead of stopping completely you with draw.....slowly at the 45th day mark.
If the loose stools come back yet again.... this is when we know that the dog is a lifer... SOOOOOOO... this is when you start again full dose, for a short while, then reduce by 1/8ths to see what the lowest dose of Tylan is needed for life to maintain the dog's SID.
HOWEVER..... all this being said, what we REALLY hope for is to avoid Tylan forever and instead.... while giving Tylan... about halfway introduce good pre+probiotic... and "hopefully" this will also help improve the gut flora to where you won't have to keep doing Tylan...............
The CURRENT PROTOCOL IS:
1. give prebiotics to see if that works, if not
2. give a combo of per+probiotics (you are doing this now i think)
3. if none of the above works.... THEN do Tylan
I hope this helps a little.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........
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