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Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Smokey
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Illinois
Pet name: Smokey

New here

Post by Smokey » 17 Sep 2022, 00:24

My dog Smokey is a 5 year old sheltie. When he was about 6 months old he started to have diarrhea from his food. We have had shelties since I was little and many have had issues with chicken. We found out he had issues with chicken and turkey. We put him on salmon and sweet potatoe and some probiotics and he was pretty stable until last November.

He started having diarrhea and we brought him to the vet they found out he had pancreatitis and put him on 2 antibiotics (one was an anti diarrheal) for 2 weeks and she changed him to Royal canine select protein moderate calorie because it was lower in fat and didn’t have chicken or turkey. We also don’t feed treats or human food. She also had him go on Prilosec for 1 month. He did better but his stools were still lighter than normal but we thought maybe the new food because it was lighter. The vet wanted us to retest in 3 months. He only made it 2 before he had another issue. This time he vomited a little to so they gave him cerenia and checked his levels and they were still high. Our vet decided to try him on 2 antibiotics (I am not sure which ones) for a month and retest. After a month his levels were totally normal and he was great for about 6 months. Then we had more issues mid July and now mid -September.

A couple of days ago he couldn’t get comfortable so (it was a Sunday like it always seems to happen. lol) we had cerenia to give as needed and we gave him one and after about 30 minutes he calmed down. 3 days later he started to have slimey stool. We have also noticed he lost some weight this summer and his stool has returned to the lighter color. It had gotten darker after the month of antibiotics. Our vet is having a GI panel run on him. The panel has to be sent to Texas A & M. She said she didn’t want to just start him on another round of antibiotics again without having more info.

I guess my question is what else should we be doing or is it just wait and see. I read on here rice isn’t great for these dogs but when he has these issues we always decrease some of his food and add rice until his stool gets better. I never know what to feed him during these times. Our vet said to continue on his normal food should be fine.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New here

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 17 Sep 2022, 15:00

Welcome to you & Smokey. It is so hard when our pets are uncomfortable. You'll get lots of help from this forum.

Is your vet testing for EPI, then? This will be the TLI test, and you must fast Smokey from all but water for 12 hours prior. This is why an appointment first thing in the morning is a good idea. They will also want to test B12. https://epi4dogs.com/tli-universal-testing/

Note the recommendation for the blood draw to be early in the week, so the sample doesn't degrade over the weekend while the lab is likely closed.

Like you, I was instructed to give Tucker boiled chicken & rice, to control diarrhea, and you are right. Once EPI is confirmed, rice will become a no-no. The reason is that grains interfere with the absorption of the enzymes EPI dogs have to take with every meal. I'm not sure rice is a problem, in the interim.

To make him more comfortable, maybe try some nice bone broth, brought to room temp. Some scrambled eggs, some canned pumpkin, maybe? Jean always suggests mashed potatoes. Once you find that he does have EPI, there is a regimen to follow, so keep us posted. Maybe sometime in a week or two you'll be able to start the treatment, & hopefully see improvement & weight gain.

Take Care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

Smokey
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Illinois
Pet name: Smokey

Re: New here

Post by Smokey » 17 Sep 2022, 16:00

Thanks for the welcome.

yes he is being tested for EPI among other things. The vet said something about a bacterial overgrowth. We were told to fast him for 12 hours and he does have an 8 am appointment. He has an issue with anything that has feathers … duck, chicken, turkey so the vet said no to eggs but he does love cooked potatoes much more than rice so I can try going to that instead.

He has been diagnosed with pancreatitis so he has been on a low fat diet. I don’t know how a grain free diet can be low fat but I guess we will know more in a couple of weeks.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New here

Post by Olesia711 » 17 Sep 2022, 17:02

Hi Smokey's parent....

For right now it is best to do a wait and see... but if you want to try anything....just in case this is EPI.... get some inexpensive over the counter plant enzymes to see if they slightly help or hinder the stool situation.

Regarding fiber ... or grains.....we advise no grains once the pet is on pancreatic (pig) enzymes .... as fiber can destroy anywhere from 0% to 50% of the efficacy of the enzymes and since we don't know which dog and by how much ... we start with no grain foods and THEN, once the dog is stable o the enzymes, then try a food with some grain in it and see how it goes.... it may be perfectly fine or it may not... you just have to try and the grain that you will want to try first would be rice.

However, based on what you wrote above...... if this is not EPI... ask your vet if you can try the smallest bag possible of a prescription FIBER food... and it just might work... or not but worth trying if this is not EPI.. The reason why i am suggesting this is because we jsut got a new pup last year. At 6 months old... everything you described above is what we went thru too! i tried everything from the perspective of dealing with possible EPI in the making or SID with an EPI or Pancreatitis background. We too see sensitivities to things with "feathers".. Even his liver enzyme (ALT) was elevated ....(having that re-checked this coming thursday)... ANYWAY... i decided to go in the opposite direction since i noticed he did a little better when i added rice to his meals.... but then even that didn't work 100%..... so i had the vet approve a high fiber prescription diet (i got the smallest bag possible!) Purina® Pro Plan® Veterinary Diets Dog EN Gastroenteric Fiber Balance™ Dry and OMG..... his stools immediately improved. By the 2rd day he had perfect stools. i have since been adding very small amounts of things that appeared to give him loose stool in the past and so far no loose stools............... but all this to say.... i also strongly suspected my dog did not have EPI (or at least not yet!) since i tried him on pig enzymes and they did absolutely nothing for him..................he still had loose stools. Also... with this food... what i discovered for us (but every dog is different) he only needs his meals to be 1/2 the prescription high fiber diet and 1/2 his regular diet........

SO..... jsut sharing the above in case your dog does not have EPI / and his TLI test comes back negative.... ifso....you might want to talk to the vet and see if you can try a prescription high fiber diet..... and see if maybe this is what is needed. ALso... fiber does helps with SID.. but the problem with our EPI dogs is that many can't handle fiber because then the efficacy of the enzymes are destroyed (as explained above.)

Oh... while the vet is drawing the blood for the TLI test, ask them to go ahead and draw blood for a Cobalamin (B12) blood test. IN case this is EPI, over 805 of all dogs with EPi have low B12 and you will need this information to know if and how much B12 your dog will also need going forward.

Please keep us posted.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New here

Post by Barb » 17 Sep 2022, 18:08

Hello and welcome to you and Smokey. You will feel much better once you get a diagnosis, one way or the other, so you know how to proceed.
It is always difficult when you don't know what you are dealing with. So hang in there.

You also might want to keep a daily log/journal of everything you give him, the amounts and the resulting poos. It's especially helpful when you have more than one thing going on. It helps you to see what is working and what needs to be adjusted.

Let us know the results of the tests.

Barb

Smokey
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Illinois
Pet name: Smokey

Re: New here

Post by Smokey » 17 Sep 2022, 20:54

Olesia711 wrote: 17 Sep 2022, 17:02 Hi Smokey's parent....

For right now it is best to do a wait and see... but if you want to try anything....just in case this is EPI.... get some inexpensive over the counter plant enzymes to see if they slightly help or hinder the stool situation.


Please keep us posted.
I know nothing about enzymes other than chronic pancreatitis (which he has) could cause him to need these so I wouldn’t know a good one to get. If you have a recommendation that would be great. Also would a probiotic help?

Currently his dog food is a prescription diet that is fish and potato. it says max dietary fiber is 9% and it looks like it’s plant based but I am not sure and I am not sure how high that is. Because of the pancreatitis our vet found this one because of the 7.5% max fat.

I have ulcerative colitis so I am use to all the craziness that comes with a flare. I thought he maybe had IBD because he seems to have flares that come and go. Sometimes his stools are solid but light in color and sometimes they are really mushy or look slimy.

Thanks everybody!

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New here

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 18 Sep 2022, 09:55

Hi there. May we have your name, as well as Smokey's? Feel free to make one up! We can also refer to you as Smokey's Person, if you prefer.

Many of us use Diane's Enzymes, and here is some advice from her page, concerning OTC enzymes while you wait.

https://enzymediane.com/emergency-enzymes/

Also, in your original post you asked about keeping Smokey comfortable, and I want to share that my vet approved daily Pepto Bismol for my non-EPI Malti-poo who has tummy trouble. It keeps her from doing the 'downward dog' move that she does when she's uncomfortable. Maybe ask your vet, and if they OK it, you can Google the correct dose for Smokey.

Hope this helps! --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New here

Post by Olesia711 » 18 Sep 2022, 19:51

ahhh..... with EPI we do suggest probiotics to see if that is enough to keep SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) under good control (another issue if your dog has EPI)....

HOWEVER..... if your dog is prone to acute pancreatitis.... it is not advisable to give a probiotic....

If your vet does suggest a probiotic, it all depends on the individual dog which probiotic will work best for them, but just to give you an idea, some of the products that appears to work well with many EPI dogs are: Proviable, Visbiome, Mercola Complete Probiotics, VetriScience Mega Probiotics...

Regarding an "over the counter" doggie (plant ) enzyme.... just go to Petsmart or Petco.... and ask if they have any digestive enzymes for dogs..... any that they carry will be plant enzymes only.

Or order:
Dr. Goodpet enzymes online https://www.chewy.com/dr-goodpet-digestive-en ... oUQAvD_BwE

or here are some other products:
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=2981
http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals-Pancreatin-8X
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Pa ... /6199?at=0
https://www.allstarhealth.com/de_p/1365 ... 200mg).htm
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Now-Super-En ... /107700050

Or
get a small sample of the enzymes we give to EPI dogs and we also use a lesser dose of this for chronic pancreatitis
https://enzymediane.com/product/pancrea ... -50-grams/

just a FYI... giving the enzymes ahead of the TLI blood test will NOT interfere with test results to see if your dog has EPI..........

HOWEVER.... do NOT give any B12 to your dog prior to having blood drawn for a Cobalamin B12 blood test (no B12 pills one week prior to the blood being drawn and no B12 injectable for 30 days prior to the blood being drawn for the B12 test)

hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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