Bad Breath

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Sep 2022, 20:10

Just catching up here.... and wanted to share with you that my Izzy who lived to 15 years was on PROIN for 14 years..... nothing else work.
And she too battled vestibular (central brain vestibular inflammation) and we just kept her on the PROIN.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Sep 2022, 20:19

Regarding this:
Daily Diet to consist of (approx. 850 kcals):

12 oz 90% pan cooked ground beef OR 12 oz. roasted pork chop (all weights are after cooking) WAS 6oz
1/2 cups of freshly cooked or canned mashed sweet potato WAS 1 1/2 cups
1 teaspoon of hempseed oil no change
1 (30 grams) ounce of canned pumpkin no change
½ ounce (15 grams) of dry oatmeal (reconstituted with small amount of water) no change but I will use 1/2 cup brown rice instead

ADDED SUPPLEMENTS:
1 ¼ scoops (5 grams) of Annamaet Enhance WAS 1 scoop or 4 grams

The doctor also stated he betting the protein and fat are not issues and you will see an improvement with the higher beef or pork.


I agree with your vet ... my experience is that with these dogs, once on enzymes, the protein and fat are not the issue when there is a flareup (unless you are dealing with a food sensitivity) but rather the carbs (too much) causes problems.

HOWEVER.... if you use canned sweet potato... heavens that is WAYYYYyyyyyyyyyy too concentrated.....ALWAY use only real sweet potato that you can nuke in the microwave, peel the skin and mash. And yes... 1+1/2 cups was WAY too much!

If you want.... if the oatmeal and brown rice didn't work..... (neither of these worked for my EPI dog either.... but worth trying cause every EPI dog's gut flora is unique..... ANYWAY... "IF" she can handle dairy...... try using 1/2 cup of cottage cheese :)

Regarding the pork chop.... a better selection would be a pork loin ... roast and you get way more meat for less money that is healthier :)
used to buy pork loin at Wlamart: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Smithfield-A ... lsrc=aw.ds
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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PipersMom
Member
Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 22 Sep 2022, 04:08

Olesia711 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 20:19 Regarding this:
Daily Diet to consist of (approx. 850 kcals):

12 oz 90% pan cooked ground beef OR 12 oz. roasted pork chop (all weights are after cooking) WAS 6oz
1/2 cups of freshly cooked or canned mashed sweet potato WAS 1 1/2 cups
1 teaspoon of hempseed oil no change
1 (30 grams) ounce of canned pumpkin no change
½ ounce (15 grams) of dry oatmeal (reconstituted with small amount of water) no change but I will use 1/2 cup brown rice instead

ADDED SUPPLEMENTS:
1 ¼ scoops (5 grams) of Annamaet Enhance WAS 1 scoop or 4 grams

The doctor also stated he betting the protein and fat are not issues and you will see an improvement with the higher beef or pork.


I agree with your vet ... my experience is that with these dogs, once on enzymes, the protein and fat are not the issue when there is a flareup (unless you are dealing with a food sensitivity) but rather the carbs (too much) causes problems.

HOWEVER.... if you use canned sweet potato... heavens that is WAYYYYyyyyyyyyyy too concentrated.....ALWAY use only real sweet potato that you can nuke in the microwave, peel the skin and mash. And yes... 1+1/2 cups was WAY too much!

If you want.... if the oatmeal and brown rice didn't work..... (neither of these worked for my EPI dog either.... but worth trying cause every EPI dog's gut flora is unique..... ANYWAY... "IF" she can handle dairy...... try using 1/2 cup of cottage cheese :)

Regarding the pork chop.... a better selection would be a pork loin ... roast and you get way more meat for less money that is healthier :)
used to buy pork loin at Wlamart: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Smithfield-A ... lsrc=aw.ds[/size]
I am so glad to hear that you also agree. It makes me feel better. The nutritionist was not happy at all with the previous recipe but that is what the internist wanted. Now that the internist is no longer with the practice I asked him to please redo it as he would for an EPI dog.

I ONLY use sweet potatoes that I peel, cut and mash. No canned here. And yes he clarified later in the email to use a pork loin however at this point we have only give her beef and she loves it. IF that changes we have the pork option.

I will see how she does with the rice, if not I will for sure try the cottage cheese. I may do that anyway. She gets her pills with cream cheese and never had an issue.



As for Proin good to hear that as well. She was on a high dose so they wanted to get that down and she had some leakage here and there. So not she is on .5mg on incurin daily and 25mg Proin BID. She has been stable and that is good.


Out regular vet told me that I was more experienced in the EPI dept then she was .. but in a good way. She is glad that I am eager to want Piper well and do my homework.


Depending on her stool this morning, if still bad I may start her on tylan. What do you all look for or know when to start your dogs on it?
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 22 Sep 2022, 10:53

glad to hear that we are all on the same page :) (your vet, you and me!)... now just to get Piper feeling better....

Give the food change a few days (i say 3 to 5).... some give it longer.... take pics of each poo elimination and date them to see if you see ANY improvement or not..... if absolutely no improvement (even a little bit meaning you are heading in the right direction) then start the Tylan.... and a few weeks into the Tylan if you are not already doing it..... introduce a pre+probiotic
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
PipersMom
Member
Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 22 Sep 2022, 11:38

Olesia711 wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 10:53 glad to hear that we are all on the same page :) (your vet, you and me!)... now just to get Piper feeling better....

Give the food change a few days (i say 3 to 5).... some give it longer.... take pics of each poo elimination and date them to see if you see ANY improvement or not..... if absolutely no improvement (even a little bit meaning you are heading in the right direction) then start the Tylan.... and a few weeks into the Tylan if you are not already doing it..... introduce a pre+probiotic

I currently give her Proviable Forte. What do you suggest I give with that?
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 22 Sep 2022, 20:08

Proviable is one of the top recommended ones... so you are all set :) ... unless you don't think it is working.......then you can try a different one.

Some of the others that we seem to like, but then again, it depends on the individual dog whether or not it will benefit them.... anyway, some of the others are;

Visbiome
Mercola Complete Probiotics
VetriScience Mega Probiotics
Synacore (by Van Bleek)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
PipersMom
Member
Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 23 Sep 2022, 06:46

Great to know she is on a good one!

BTW, we started her on Tylan yesterday as her stool was so loose. How fast can you see a change in stool? Can it be within days?

Just curious it has been a long time since we needed it.
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Sep 2022, 09:46

if Tylan is going to address the situation.... you "usually" see some sort of improvement within the first few days........... if you do not see ANY improvement at all by day 5..... then TYlan most likely will not address the situation.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
PipersMom
Member
Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 23 Sep 2022, 11:22

I ask because after three doses she just poo'd and it is already starting to look better. Whew...
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Sep 2022, 15:06

WAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!! This is great news. continue with the Tylan :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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