New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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ellagirl@04
Member
Posts: 19
Country: United States
State: Nevada
Pet name: Ella
My name: Kat

New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Post by ellagirl@04 » 03 Feb 2023, 17:47

Hello everyone!

My girl Ella is a 22 months young Blue Heeler w/sassy attitude most of the time! In the beginning of the month of December 2022, we started to notice some changes in her stool which became more in volume and terrible in odor! After almost a week of no improvements we got her stool tested, however, came back negative! We put her on bland chicken and rice diet and her stools improved overnight! So that was exciting! We started to add her kibble slowly but her soft stools returned! We saw the vet and she put her on antibiotics and probiotics for 10 days! Initially we saw a slight improvement but her soft stools returned! We did a full fecal sample testing and that came back positive for clostridium pefringens alpha. The vet suggested prescription diet with higher fiber content which initially helped but her stools became oily! At this point it was week 6 with our struggles and our girl had the following signs and symptoms: weight loss (starting at 26.5 lbs and ending at 20.1 lbs), soft and volumous stools with no odor at all and at some point she tried to eat her feces, extreme hunger!
The vet started to suspect EPI and the tests came back as following (after 13 hours fasting):

cPL result-30-low normal
TLI result-7.2-low normal
B-12 result-233-low
Folate result-10.3-within normal range

The vet was surprised and because her cholesterol levels were a little low she ordered another test for Addison's disease since this one is actually called an imitator condition and will have symptoms of other diseases! The results came back negative! The Addison's was ruled out!

The vet wanted to go ahead with the digestive enzymes supplements and B-12 shots weekly for 6 weeks to see how she responds! Viokase was suggested to us and we started the powder enzymes on 1/25/23 and saw almost instant improvement! The next day she was having normal stools and less in volume as well!
Currently the powder is out of stock and that was one of the reasons (besides the cost) we wanted to try the raw pancreas!
She started the raw pancreas on 2/2/23 and her stools changed a bit in more volume and a little bit softer!
She is currently at 21.6 lbs (went up about 1 lb in last week) and the dosage for feeding the raw pancreas is as following: 1oz per 1 cup of kibble( twice a day-am/pm) ans 0.5 oz per 1/2 cup of kibble at lunch time.
Not sure if I should increase or decrease the dosage I'm currently giving her of raw pancreas!

Does she need more time to just adjust to the raw pancreas or feeding the raw pancreas just isn't for all the dogs?
We might just wait and see for the next vet visit when her B-12 shot is administered weekly, if she is continuing gaining more weight!

Just wanted to hear from all of you regardless if you feed feed raw pancreas or not what are your experiences! We are fairly new to this condition and just need some help and guidence!
Thank you,

Kat and Ella(the pup)

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Montgomery
Member
Posts: 418
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Post by Montgomery » 03 Feb 2023, 17:54

We do Enzyme Diane with Montgomery, but we went through a LOT of adjustments to get him sorted out, so do one thing at a time, write things down, and be patient.
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats extra lean ground chicken, lean ground pork and lean ground beef completed with Alnutrin and freeze-dried chicken liver, with hard-cooked egg. He gets two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's enzymes at each of his six meals, and a size four capsule of Tylan three times a day. He's a fierce little Spitfire with a roaring Merlin engine.

ellagirl@04
Member
Posts: 19
Country: United States
State: Nevada
Pet name: Ella
My name: Kat

Re: New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Post by ellagirl@04 » 03 Feb 2023, 18:48

Thank you @ Montgomery!
May I ask what other enzyme options, if any have you tried?

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Feb 2023, 19:13

Hi Kat,

First i'd like to say big Kudo's to you AND your vet..... even though the 7.2 TLI test result is not only out of EPI but also out of SEPI range ... i applaud your vet for wanting to try giving enzymes and see if they help. I am glad you are seeing improvement... i am sure this is a relief for you..... but still.... if you can re-run the TLI test in another 6 months.. ... or sooner if your vet thinks it warrants it..... to either confirm that your dog has developed EPI or if the TLI numbers continue to slide towards EPI and you have to keep watching it.

REgarding Enzymes...... check out EnzymeDiane's food grade enzymes... i used her enzymes for 15 years for my dog and it was life saver.... there is no way we could have afford prescription enzymes .... lots of folks here also use her enzymes:
https://enzymediane.com/
Specifically look at the 6x. https://enzymediane.com/product-category/pancreatin-6x/ .... you can order it in varying quanities

SOOOoooooo... to answer your question.... give more of the raw pancreas.... it can be a little trial and error to figure out what Raw pancreas dose works best. Here is some info on using raw pancreas:

FEEDING RAW PANCREAS: If you would like to try using raw pancreas; fresh beef, pork or lamb pancreas are recommended. Raw BEEF Pancreas is available for purchase in the USA at http://www.hare-today.com/ or http://www.greentripe.com/ . or Sirius Natural Pet Foods . There is also an amazing selection of raw pancreas at: https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/ . If you are in the U.K. you can look into http://rawtogo.co.uk/ . One to three or four ounces of raw pancreas can replace one teaspoon of pancreatic extract. Raw pancreas may be frozen in cubes for future use and thawed naturally, but never heat on the stove or in the microwave.

First puree the raw pancreas and (for your convenience) then freeze it in 1 ounce packets (or an ice try should work). Once you figure out how many ounces of raw pancreas your dog responds best to per 1 cup of food….(whether it is 1, 2 ,3 or 4 ounces of the raw pancreas)….. let the proper amount of frozen raw pureed pancreas thaw naturally (DO NOT HEAT !) …. and mix in with the food. It appears to usually work best when allowed to “incubate”… we suggest 15 – 20 minutes… but some do fine with less time, and some seem to need a few minutes more and others need no incubation time. In the beginning there will be some trial and error until you figure out what works best for your dog.

If possible beef or lamb raw pancreas is recommended over pork pancreas because of the “possibility” of the transmission of pseudorabies, although rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorabies

Also… raw pancreas is not all the same. Each and every gland has a different potency of enzymes. This is not just species to species. The potency can vary from one farm animal to another farm animal as well. If you use 1 ounce of raw pancreas with the batch you are currently using the next batch may need to be tweaked. Fresh pancreas has a shelf life (in the freezer) of up to 3 months.


Adding enzymes to a raw fed meal:
Since raw food is harder to measure by the cup since the densities of different meat/bones will require different levels of enzymes, it is easiest to go by weight rather than amount! ” To add the enzymes, you can either puree a portion of the raw meat and add the enzymes to that pureed slurry and pour over the remainder of the raw food, let sit for 20 minutes and serve, or you can add the enzymes to something like yogurt/kefir and either add to the food as mentioned above, or serve the enzymed slurry first ahead of the meal. Try both to see which works best with your EPI dog. (Thank you Cait for these great suggestions!)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Montgomery
Member
Posts: 418
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: New To EPI-Not quite EPI with my girl

Post by Montgomery » 03 Feb 2023, 22:44

ellagirl@04 wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 18:48 Thank you @ Montgomery!
May I ask what other enzyme options, if any have you tried?
He started out on Viokase, which helped a little, but because he is an obligate carnivore, the dose he would need to be anywhere near stable on that was astronomical, and the pills were massive and shattered when split. We did Pank-Aid for quite awhile with good results, and then it was unavailable, and then it came back, and when it did, he had the worst odour. It was all over him, coming out of him, like a giant tom cat. Then I was warned supplies were running low again, so we made the switch to Enzyme Diane, The odour went away almost immediately, his digestion improved, and we're sticking with it.
Its been a long road. So many foods, so many medications, and even an X-ray. That's why I think its so important to write things down; I never would have been able to keep track of him without his little journal.
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats extra lean ground chicken, lean ground pork and lean ground beef completed with Alnutrin and freeze-dried chicken liver, with hard-cooked egg. He gets two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's enzymes at each of his six meals, and a size four capsule of Tylan three times a day. He's a fierce little Spitfire with a roaring Merlin engine.

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