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Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to the forum

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Mar 2023, 22:46

Thank you for the update. Sounds like things ARE improving. Please continue to keep us updated.
ALso... the Pet Factor B12 from WOnderlabs usually works very very well.... But there is a company in the UK called CHEMEYES,
https://chemeyes.co.uk/
that carries a lot of EPI products for dogs.... they too carry B12 and enzymes..... i am just sharing this with you so that you can have a back-up source of EPI supplies. The potency may be slightly different, but their products are also good.

Looking forward to hearing more good progress!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Vossiesmom
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Posts: 23
Country: Netherlands
Pet name: Vos
My name: Marie

Re: New to the forum

Post by Vossiesmom » 06 Mar 2023, 13:53

Thanks again Olesia for the great information!! We will try ordering from Chemeyes next, that seems a lot easier.

A little update:
Since yesterday Vos started 'leaking' a clear liquid from her anus. We haven't seen that happen before. Is this something that happens with more EPI dogs?

Vos did get her anal glands expressed a month ago. We are also currently transferring Vos' food from Edgar Cooper duck and chicken puppy kibble to Taste of the Wild (High Prairie). Maybe that has something to do with it?
Her poop has improved a lot since the enzymes. But she still often has poops that are for the first part firm and dark brown, followed by softer and lighter coloured poop...

But to finish with the good news: we weighed Vos again and she gained another 1,2 kg!! :D

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New to the forum

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Mar 2023, 18:49

Hi Marie,

That clear liquid leaky from her anus sounds like an anal gland issue.... which happens over time, so i suspect it is most likely not the current transition to Taste of the Wild but possibly from the previous food.... or.... she is prone to needing her anal glands expressed more frequently for whatever reason. MAny times there is an anal gland issue because of a food sensitivity (maybe the duck???) , but i think they can also have anal gland issues just because....

glad her poop has improved... but the firm and dark at the beginning and lighter and softer towards the end means that things still need to improve.
My thought is to give it some more time... and once she is on the Taste of the Wild food completely for a few weeks.... see if the poo has further improved... if not.... then you can first try increasing the enzymes by a tiny amount and see if that helps... if not then you probably will have to update the pre/probiotics and if that doesn't work, then you will need to try antibiotics...........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Vossiesmom
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Posts: 23
Country: Netherlands
Pet name: Vos
My name: Marie

Re: New to the forum

Post by Vossiesmom » 16 Mar 2023, 06:14

Thanks again Olesia! We're going to give it a bit more time to see how she's doing on the new food.
It's been almost a week since Vos is fully transferred to Taste of the Wild. Yesterday was a bad poop-day: Vos ate some uncooked pasta from the ground and found some more 'goodies' (pizza, very old kibble) later. But other than that her poop seems to be getting consistently better! (2-3 on the chart) Especially the morning poops are excellent.

Something we are not sure about is the different daily recommended dose + the amount of enzymes.
150% of the old food was about 110 grams per meal (3x a day)
150% of the new food is 80 grams per meal (3x a day)

The internet says that 1 cup is 113 grams of kibble, so that would mean that we would have to give way less enzymes with her new food. Am I right about that? With 80 grams it would be 70% of a 1 teaspoon. Right now we're still on 1 teaspoon per meal...
We are noticing that since a few days Vos is having way more acid reflux. And when we pick her up she starts coughing and throwing up in her mouth. (So we of course stopped doing that.) That made me think that she's getting too much enzymes right now...

And last question: do you guys use something else than a teaspoon to measure out the powdered enzymes more accurately?
It seems difficult to consistently give 70% of a teaspoon...

Marie

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2088
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New to the forum

Post by jilbert57 » 16 Mar 2023, 10:01

Hi Marie,
How much kibble do you feed per day total? You could always round the cup up to the nearest half or full cup while your pup is still underweight to make dosing easier.

My teaspoon set is 1/4, 1/2 and 1 teaspoon so fairly easy. I also have this set from Amazon which is pinch,tad, dash, smidgen, drop;

Norpro Mini Stainless Steel Measuring Spoons, Set of 5 (tad, dash, pinch, smidgen and drop) https://a.co/d/gCARNiA

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New to the forum

Post by Jane&Clyde » 16 Mar 2023, 13:26

One teaspoon of standard powdered enzymes is approximately 2.8 grams, if that helps.

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Vossiesmom
Member
Posts: 23
Country: Netherlands
Pet name: Vos
My name: Marie

Re: New to the forum

Post by Vossiesmom » 16 Mar 2023, 16:51

jilbert57 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 10:01 Hi Marie,
How much kibble do you feed per day total? You could always round the cup up to the nearest half or full cup while your pup is still underweight to make dosing easier.

My teaspoon set is 1/4, 1/2 and 1 teaspoon so fairly easy. I also have this set from Amazon which is pinch,tad, dash, smidgen, drop;

Norpro Mini Stainless Steel Measuring Spoons, Set of 5 (tad, dash, pinch, smidgen and drop) https://a.co/d/gCARNiA

Jill

Hi Jill,

Vos gets 240 grams of kibble per day in total. And thanks for the tip on the teaspoon set! That sounds a lot easier than using an actual teaspoon :D

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Vossiesmom
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Posts: 23
Country: Netherlands
Pet name: Vos
My name: Marie

Re: New to the forum

Post by Vossiesmom » 16 Mar 2023, 16:52

Jane&Clyde wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 13:26 One teaspoon of standard powdered enzymes is approximately 2.8 grams, if that helps.
Thanks Jane, that definitely helps!!

Ivanny
Member
Posts: 1
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Misoa
My name: Ivanny

Re: New to the forum

Post by Ivanny » 12 Apr 2023, 03:47

Vossiesmom wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 13:23
Olesia711 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 22:44 Hi Marie,'

SO glad Jill has been helping you out.... i typically get notification that there are posts on the EPI forum, but i have not receive any... so i checked tonight, and OMG.... so many posts that i have not addressed :(

SO... i agree with Jill, i would supplement with B12. look for a product that has 1000mcg B12... these are the B12 dosing instructions:
https://epi4dogs.com/b12-protocol/
I am not sure what B12 products are available to you where you live..but B12 pills are fine as long as you get a product that has 1000mcg B12.

Regarding "The doctor wants us to transfer her food to Hill's low fat i/d kibble. It does contain corn and rice, so it's not really grain free... After two not so good experiences with Hill's we're not happy to transfer to this brand again. Does anyone on this forum have experience with this brand? Or other thoughts about corn and rice in the diet of an EPI doggo." Unless some other health condition requires her to be on a low fat diet, i would NOT put her on a low fat diet.. this is an old protocol.

Regarding "The uruem and liver levels were also not so good, which can be because she is basically underfed. But it can also mean that she has 'liver shunt'. ....." if it is just the ALT liver value that is high, this could be nothing more than SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) that is out of control and ALL dog with EPI have SID to one degree or another.... but if it is both the ALT + AST liver values.... then something more is going on...........
I do not know what you mean by "uruem"......
I do hope it is not liver shunt either :(


REgarding the B12... it is low normal and NOT good enough........

Regarding "Is it also possible to incubate the enzymes just in water,...." the enzymes will just float around... best to add just enough water to the dry food to moisten the food enough for the powdered enzymes to stick, no need for the food to be swimming in liquid. BUT....... what kind of enzymes are you using?????

If you are using powdered enzymes.... you mix in the food and let incubate for 20 minutes as you are doing....
BUT... if you are using enteric coated enzymes.... you DO NOT mix in the food, and you do not incubate.

Can you please share with us what brand of enzymes are you using AND how much are you giving with how much food?

ALSO... for the weight gain,,,,, with an EPI dog, you feed them 150% of what they normally would require, but you feed more meals but make them smaller meals throughout the day...

Hi Olesia,

Thanks for responding to all this!
B12: Over here there's not too many good options for B12, but I think we're gonna try to order from Wonderlabs and stock up on some Slippery Elm too while we're at it. And maybe some pro-biotics too.

Food transfer: we ended up transferring Vos to Taste of the Wild (High Prairie), after looking up some things at the forum. Sucks to have to double check/doubt a lot of what the vet suggests, but I'm getting that this has been the experience of a loooot of people here...
It makes me very grateful for the incredible amount of good information and help on this forum and site!

Enzymes: we started just moistening the kibble and then adding enzymes, that makes a big difference! Vos uses Zymoral, powdered enzymes.
Assuming 1 cup of kibble = 113 grams (the internet says so), we give Vos 1 cup of kibble with 1 level tsp of enzymes.

Weight gain: we started feeding Vos and extra meal in between, so she's on 4 meals a day, which is a bit over 150% of the normal requirement. In the past week she already gained some weight and her energy is getting back to how it was before the summer. It has been great to see how playful and social she actually is :D

Marie
Hi everybody!
Recently, my cat has had symptoms such as Chronic Diarrhea, Weight loss even though the cat still eats better or has more appetite. It also has a lot of stools and often farts. I have taken a dietary supplement for cats. Or take a pancreatic enzyme supplement. Enzyme supplements are usually powdered and can be mixed with food. But it has almost no effect. Please save my pet.

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2088
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New to the forum

Post by jilbert57 » 12 Apr 2023, 10:02

Ivanny: I have started you a thread called
"Please help my cat"
Thanks
Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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