New and need advice

[Bowers]

Hello!

My Gryph has been diagnosed and we are officially trying to figure out what we are doing. I need advice for sure!

A very abbreviated series of events; only some of the "unfortunate" variety -

Gryphon was born Sept. 2019. Nov. 2019 - Came home from the breeder. Ate IAMS Puppy. Really fowl, runny, poops began. We chased to the vet and had him tested for parasites. Always negative. Tried Antibiotics. Got better. But not really. I tried so many things to fix his poop. Pumpkin, probiotics, lamb not chicken, etc....It waxed and waned.

From then to now - The poops always came back and then would get better but we did end up doing antibiotics again which helped. However, the boy always has always had "upset" tummy issues..

The last 60 days - Gryph dropped weight. Like crazy dropped. I could see bones. Ordered a "weight gainer" remedy and that worked terribly because the fatty formula triggered his poops!

I did a little research and went to the vet and cried EPI!?!?!? They checked the usual things which were all clean and did the test for EPI. Got the call that my boy has it. Spent what felt like a million dollars on the enzyme gold. (Found Enzyme Diane so I have this covered for the future!) He spent 10 days on antibiotics again. He finished the antibiotic on the 12th. We have been going for 19 days now and yes there was improvement! Side note - He just started his B12 two days ago. That is another story but the vet and I have it handled now! So B12 is new! Oral 1000ug.

So, my real question - why does it seem like we are reverting? His poops were great but now they are grainy, orange, slimy sometimes, and hold no form. Like before he was diagnosed!

I am doing 1 teaspoon per 1 cup of kibble. I mix and refrigerate after 1 hour of incubation time. I warm to room temperature before feeding him and he gets no teats that aren't enzyme coated.

I know my neurotic 3 year old has EPI and low B12. Do I presume he has SID/SIBO as well and move to the prebiotic? Slippery Elm powder? I truly believe there is more missed based on the fact that his poops have always been abnormal. I feel a little defeated right now because I thought I had my baby fixed! Any words of advice are truly valued....

Thank you!

[Olesia711]

Hi Michele and welcome to you and Gryphon to our EPI family...

And yes, Gryphon has SID/SIBO (gut dysbiosis)... Just a FYI... they have now discovered that all EPI dogs have SID/SIBO to one degree or another. Our objective is to keep it under good control as best we can.

First... what kind of antibiotics was Gryphon given? if Metronidazole/Flagyl.... then that is the problem or part of the problem.... DO NOT give Metro. Metro immediately kills ALL bacteria which is not good especially for an EPI dog, as also recently discovered is that EPI dog do not have enough bacteria and they also do not have enough bacterium variety... so that last thing you want to do is kill everything. Instead have the vet prescribe Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate antibiotic) which is a macrolide for 45 days/twice a day with food. Macrolides do not kill all bacteria but rather (in simplified terms) inhibits bacterium reproduction.

About Tylan
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

Your vet can write a scrip for you to get it from Chewy.

It does NOT sound like Gryphon was on a long enough course of any antibiotic... and that might be why iit keeps coming back, and if you were given Metro, that is also another huge part of the problem.

SO..... .... about that orange poo.... it can be nothing more than the result of out-of-control SID, and once you get SID under good control the poos will improve........ or it can be that Gryphon also has IBD, which a lot of EPI dogs have.. a combo of EPI + IBD...

In general many times, people come back saying the enzymes are no longer working, cause initially everything was fine for a few weeks and then all of a sudden everything went downhill..... In reality, the enzymes ARE working, but what has happened is that (this is simplified) all the stored up pockets of undigested particles are shaking lose now that the enzymes are finally digesting everything that the body wasn’t previously digesting.... hence the crappy stools. SO this is another possibility. And yes, we try Slippery elm powder first, or some other "properly measured" prebiotic.. cause too much will also cause loose stools, and if that fails, then try a pre+probiotic (which may or may not help)... and if this fails, then do the Tylan antibiotic (I think this is where you are at right now and should do the Tylan for 45 days/twice a day with food. And if the Tylan fails .. then you can look at Fecal transplant .. it is cheap and effective.... my understanding is the enema technique is more effective thatn the pill technique.

If it turns out that the orange & grainy poo continues.... then tell you vet you suspect IBD, and you want to try a small prescription bag of Royal Canin "Ultamino" prescription HYDROLYZED food.... there are about 5 different "real" hydrolyzed foods out there, but overall the Ultamino food usually works better than the others. Of course, this is no guarantee that it will work best, it jsut seems to have a better batting average with "most" of our EPI + IBD dogs. And then after a while though, you will want to try and figure out what the food sensitivities are..........

ANd last but not least... whenever there is orange poo..... just to be on the safe side.... have the vet check for any possible liver issues..... just in case. Better to be safe than sorry... but the fact that you mentioned "grainy" i personally would lean more towards possible IBD.

What food are you feeding now?
How much enzymes per cup of food?
Also... side note.... if you are feeding real sweet potato...or lots of carrots or pumpkin.... that too will produce orange poo.

Although i know it works for some, my personal opinion about refrigerating the food with enzymes is not one of my favorites. I have seen too many dogs SID get out of control after a few weeks/month on food that has been refrigerated and then brought down to room temp.... SO i am not a big fan of this technique... and it may be contributing to his dysbiosis.... or not! On the flip side, there are people that do exactly what you are doing with the food and never had a problem....

[jilbert57]

Oh my gosh I had a long post that I posted about 2 minutes ago and it is nowhere to be found!

Olesia covered all the ground so I will say welcome and it is always good to keep a daily journal of food, meds and poop. That way if something goes bad or good you have it recordrd.

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-log/

Jill

[Olesia711]

Hi Jill... that's been happening to all of use recently, i swear, me, Jean and now you.... long post and then POOF! So annoying.

[Jean]

Good morning from the UK

we hve all been there so take heart

Can I ask what antibiotic was used, stay clear of Metronadazole, it has side effects, as Olesia has said

as to the b12 which one are you using, it has to have the intricsic Factor inbuilt if its oral

https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/digestive/c_multi_exocrine_pancreatic_insufficiency

https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

if it is injection then it must be dark pink not the multi vitamin type

take time to read up and record everything tou do and the results, My Karas poo was orange and smelled disgusting,

just looking at your regime of preparing food

the rule of thumb in the states is to mix the powder let it sit for maybe 30 mins stir and feed , maybe try that

Enzyme Diane has been a God send for so many people over the years, e had issues with Kara with food intolerances she couldnt have chicken or its by products, any grain including rice, so we fed lamb basd her whole life , check out if the food has pourlty fat as it will be chicken, try to steer clear of peas , but the dog food people have found this to be a cheap filler

[Bowers]

Thank you all so very much indeed!

Gryph is eating IAMS Lamb and Rice. For decades, all of my dogs have been on the regular chicken version of IAMS before this switch with no issues. I switched to Lamb and Rice a few months ago as I was trying to work out what was happening with his weight before I knew anything about EPI. I also read that dogs do well when EPI is in control on original food so I did not make a change yet. I stopped the remedies for doggy upset stomach on my own long before he was diagnosed. Pumpkin always made his poops worse which was what it was supposed to fix, lol! That lesson I learned on my own indeed!

And the antibiotic he just finished was in fact Flagyl. UGH! LOL! I have made a note for the vet whom we see again tomorrow - 6/21.

He is taking Dyancoblamin daily -1000ug tablets.

Pancreved - 1 tsp per cup of kibble. (I have just ordered from Enzyme Diane so he will transition once this original powder is complete)

I am going in armed with articles from this amazing group to validate that he has the SID. I am charting every meal and every poop! I know to make controlled changes so my thought is this: (let me know if it sounds logical)

1-Still incubating and rewarming food from fridge - I prepare 3 days at a time. If after the new antibiotic and controlled dose of Slippery Elm, he is still not right, I will return to the 20 minute, non-refrigerated model for food prep!

2-Asking vet for the a 45 day regime of Tylan.

3-Starting low and controlled dosing of Slippery Elm.

[Jean]

I note you are gicing I assume Cynocobalamin

does it have the intrinsic factor inbuilt to it, if not then the Woderlabs one is the one to go for as far as oral is concerned

exactly what is the oral b12 called and make

I would be very sceptical of the rice in food but it is may opinion

is the enzyme you are using called Gold, can you put a link to it so we can have a look I have neve heard of it

there is a lot to learn at the beginning of EPI and what were the test results, but keep it simple

[Olesia711]

Hi Michele,

thanks for sharing with us your daily routine.

#1. The first thing i would stop is making food 3 days ahead of time and refrigerating....this could very well be the underlying trigger for out-of-control SID with Gryphon. Especially if this is not EPI+ IBD and instead all EPI - related. SO......Once you get everything straightened out with Gryphon, and he is stable for about a month.... THEN, if you want... try refrigerating his food again and see if his SID gets out of control again over the course of a month or so. Then if his poos go south again, you will know not to use this technique in the future. But for now, i would prepare the food with the enzymes for each meal.

#2 UGH..... since this most likely is indeed SID, and since your vet already gave him flagyl (Metro) for the 10 days. At this juncture, no sense starting with pre, pro+pre biotics, slippery elm etc. Just dive right in, and tell the vet you want Gryphon started on Tylan for 45 days / twice a day.
About 1/2 way thru the Tylan regimen then introduce a pre+probiotic.. or start with SLippery Elm to help replenish the gut flora bacterium..

#3 the Dyanocobalamin.... the 1000ug tablets is the right stuff (this is Cyanocobalamin)... however..... some dogs will do okay with Cyanocobalamin pills, others will not do fine on it unless intrinsic factor is included.... even thou "old" research suggests that the intrinsic factor needs to be species specific.. we beg to differ based on multiple repeated before and after blood tests taken with EPI dogs that were on Cyanocobalamin or Methylcobalamin without the intrinsic factor included. SOOOOOooo.... this is another situation where overall, if taking pills, we recommend starting with something that we know now works more often than not....try Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12.
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 (it's cheap, only $16 a bottle) and you can get a 20% discount by using code "EPI4Dogs15"

It is made with 1000ug Methylcobalamin and Folate and Intrinsic Factor (porcine). IN many cases, Methylcobalamin is more readily processed in the body in some people (and we assume this is most likely also true with dogs although there is no research to support this claim, just individual cases) vs. Cyanocobalamin....

#4 FYI, Pancreved is an EXCELLENT product for enzymes it is prescription enzymes, but Enzyme Diane's 6 x is comparable (and classified as food enzymes) and a lot cheaper. That is why many of us use ENzymeDiane. It is a good alternative to save money.

Overall, please have your vet read the research tabs on this website, especially:
https://epi4dogs.com/epi-research/

[Bowers]

Thank you so much to all of you! I will make modifications to my plan. Without this group, I would feel so in the dark. I truly appreciate you!! My vet admits she has never had a EPI dog and she is learning as well! Thank goodness for this group!!!

[Jean]

Olesia really is up on US enzymes etc, the uk are different

I too think the prepation of the food maybe could be changed

we learn daily