Would Love Your Wisdom

[Miley’s Mom]

I think we are generally moving in the right direction!

I’m so confused about poop. It’s been leaps and bounds better since the day we started enzymes and I’ve been super happy with how we’re progressing. We’re about to transition off the purina EN but then I started second guessing and went down the rabbit hole about poop color and now wondering even if the consistency is good and outside is brown is it too yellow but then I looked at the food that she’s on which is the exact same color and wonder if that might be the cause!

I’m in a little bit of a place where I’m making myself completely insane much like I did when I was a brand new mom!

Here’s pictures of our one month progress, tonight’s poop, which may look a little more yellow because of the light I’m using and the snow reflecting, and of our food!

This girl REALLY appreciates all of your feedback!

[Eddiespaghetti]

Hello,
I will say weight gain wise you are definitely moving in the right direction.
With the poop, there does seem to be bits of food in it. You can try adding a dash more enzymes and that should clear up. The color and consistency is more than likely from SIDs. I went back to your previous post and didn't see any mention of slippery elm or tylosin. You will want to start treatment of the SIDs. Here is a link to the EPI page for it.
https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-management/

[Miley’s Mom]

That’s what I was afraid of! Will revisit with the vet. My husband is having sticker shock at the sudden increase in recurring bills for our formerly low maintenance girl!

Thank you so much for the insight!

[Eddiespaghetti]

Slippery elm does not require a vet visit and is relatively cheap. It is also the first thing recommended to try when it comes to help controlling SIDs. Depending on the size of the dog, one tub should last 87 days, according to the instructions on the tub. You will want to start with half the recommended dose or lower and work your way up (if needed)
https://a.co/d/5RwoGSR

[Olesia711]

Miley is precious!!!! Looks a lot like my beloved Izzy, who Epi4Dogs was started for.

SO..... Jeremy gave you great suggestions.... looking at the poo, yes, it might be lighter due to the food, but the slime around it is a dead give-away that SID/SIBO (dysbiosis) is also in play here... and starting with SLippery ELm first is the best thing. The other thing is that all dogs when diagnosed with EPI have SID. Very often things improve immediately after being placed on the enzymes, but then a few weeks later, the poo goes downhill again. A simplified description is that before the enzymes, SID had a great opportunity to build up. Then enzymes were introduced and all of sudden nutrients are being absorbed instead of going bad and being stockpiled .... so now all that stockpiled bad metabolites are being shook loose and you are seeing yucky poos again. in other words, the gut flora is out of whack. SO.... start with the slippery elm.... but also... you might want to look at changing the food..... try a very small bag of something from the store/non-prescription / over the counter, low fiber content of 4% or less (if you can) and try to avoid a product that has multiple pea products in it, or has peas in it as one of the top 4 ingredients. but as, i mentioned... go with the smallest bag possible just in case it doesn't work out.

The reason why i am mentioning this is because dogs with EPI inherently have SID... BUT.....if a diet that is being fed isn't the best for that dog's gut flora composition, then no matter how well you try to keep SID under good control, the food, if not optimal, will continue to perpetuate SID.....

With EPI dogs, once you put them on enzymes, which the have to have to survive.... fiber content can destroy the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between 0% to 50%. Our problem is that we have no idea which dog "if affected" is affected by what percentage. SO.... to start with, we tell folks try a food that has low fiber content (grain free section) of 4% or less. Avoids a lot of peas/lentils in the ingredients. and doesn't have any grain in it. Some EPI dogs do just fine with grain... we just don't know which ones.... this is why we say to "start" with a low fiber (grain free) food. ... and later try a food with grain.. preferable rice seems to work best.

If the SLippery Elm doesn't make much difference, then talk to your vet about give Miley a pre+probiotic. SOme of our recommendations are Proviable, Visbiome, Vetri-Science Mega Probiotics, Mercola Complete Probiotics , If you still do not see improvement after a couple of weeks... THEN talk to your vet about doing a course of Tylan antibiotic. https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

[Miley’s Mom]

Literally cried when I saw $16 price tag instead of $160!

[Eddiespaghetti]

I understand the cost of everything adding up. Luckily and hopefully the big costs are out of the way. Once you get the SIDs under control, you may not have to treat for it again. Sometimes, you might have to just treat flare ups. The bright side is slippery elm and Tylosin are not expensive in comparison.
https://www.chewy.com/tylan-tylosin-tar ... /dp/173768
Rough estimates for the tylosin, based of the weight, should last couple months. That is of course if you give the full dose 2x a day everyday. Which you shouldn't have to.
There was a study(which I can't find now) that said; with some dogs the SIDs cleared up on it's own once enzyme treatment was started. I think the 16 dollars is definitely worth trying to not have to smell that foul poopy though. If I can find that study when I get back to my computer I will post it.

[Miley’s Mom]

Thank you again. Slippery Elm is ordered! Crossing our fingers!

[Eddiespaghetti]

I found the study. It was a small study of 6 healthy dogs. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7022563/

Regardless of what studies say. If it works for you, it works for you.

[Olesia711]

Excellent article Jeremy.... thanks for posting!!!!

.... interestingly though...... the bacterium that the Tylan decreases are the bacterium that EPI dogs have an overload of :


located in this research: "2017 EPI Dogs Fecal Chart"
located on this page: https://epi4dogs.com/sid-sibo-microbiome-research/

Research done by Texas A&M.

HOWEVER........even with the results of both of these research pieces..... we still have to approach the results with caution.... cause what i found out afterwards (with the EPI Tylan study) is that even though EPI dogs have too much lactobacillus bacterium... for example there are hundreds of different strains of it.... some are deemed beneficial but some that are supposedly not, are still needed for good gut bacteria function.... and then i found out that we still don't know of all the strains!!!

Then there is a possible concern.....(and the verdict is out on this).... that the results "may" be altered when running tests on fecal matter as it has to pass thru the anal canal which in itself may change composition. BUt for now..... this is all we got

And there is more:
WHat i did find out though is that "if" you can treat SID/SIBO dysbiosis via pre or symbiotic pre+probiotics the "fix" to get the dysbiosis under good control may last longer than if you have to treat with Tylan. Neither is a permanent fix.... again, this is a generality.

SOOOOOOooooooo.... for now, we go by anecdotal results with our pups in addition to whatever we can glean from research.... BUT..... we strongly encourage more research to better understand what in the world is going on!!