Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Post Reply
darindeb19
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Stella
My name: Debbie

Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by darindeb19 » 23 Feb 2024, 14:16

Hello!

We have a 7 year old Black Lab, names Stella that was recently diagnosed with EPI. We noticed she was losing weight even though she was still eating well. We are currently using Vet One PancrePlus enzyme, 2 tsp daily. We are having trouble finding a way to get this enzyme into her. In my desperate attempt to find some help I came across this web site and forum. I've ben reading through some of the posts, it's comforting to know we aren't alone. We tried sardines in water today to hide the enzyme and although Stella at some of the sardines she didn't lick up any of the liquid. Stella is very suspicious of food items we are giving her. There has been some confusion I feel between us and the vet as to "soak" the enzyme in water before adding to food. We have put the enzyme on food and let it sit for 15 minutes, Stella refuses to eat this. We have put the enzyme on other high value food like chicken with bone broth for dogs and Stella also refuses this. Our next attempt will be raw beef pancreas to replace the enzyme daily. Our vet instructed us to use 3 oz of raw beef or park pancreas daily. I am hopeful However, that won't be available until next week and we need to try and get this enzyme into her. I'm hopeful we can maybe get some help here. Any other ideas to try to get this enzyme into her without putting the enzyme in liquid and putting in a syringe to get into her.

I am appreciative of any help!

Thank you!

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by Olesia711 » 23 Feb 2024, 14:27

Hi Debbie and so sorry stella is having trouble consuming the enzymes. BUT.... i must admit, your vet is giving you great suggestions... too bad Stella still is not keen on eating the food with the enzymes.

Here are some additional suggestions....get some empty gel caps and pour the designated amount of powdered enzymes (BTW, the PancrePlus powdered enzymes are very good as long as they say 71,400 USP units of Lipase on the back of the bottle ) and give 1 extra capsule to compensate for using the gel cap to deliver these enzymes. be sure to use the 1 tsp of enzymes to 1 cup of food ratio.

OR.... call your vet today and ask him for a script of CREON 10,000 (or CREON 12,000). These are enteric coated enzymes (for humans) that has absolutely no taste what-so-ever. Open the capsule and sprinkle these little enteric coated pellets onto food that has been moistened a little so that the pellets have something to stick to... and serve immediately... DO NO incubate.

OR..... try using the powdered enzymes that you have now, but incubate in moistened food for 30 minutes instead of for 15 minutes and maybe even add 1 tsp of water above and beyond how much liquid you are adding to the food now. I personally found that for a cup of dry food i had to add 1/4 cup of water to moisten the kibble enough for my EPI dog.... but everyone has their own technique.

Keep us posted and if you have any other questions, just ask!

Oh... and be sure to share with your vet everything we suggest to you :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

darindeb19
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Stella
My name: Debbie

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by darindeb19 » 23 Feb 2024, 15:12

Thank you so much for such a quick reply!

As far as the incubating it for 30 mins instead of 15, does that break down the taste/smell that's so off-putting even more? Or does it just help "bind" or whatever to the food. Regardless we will try that and see what happens. She has gotten very skeptical and weary of anything we're giving her right now with enzyme in it and her being so underweight currently has me very concerned. Her normal weight is 60-65 lbs and as of Wednesday (21st) she is 43 lbs. She is noticeably weaker and very low energy.

We're also potentially wondering about some sort of appetite stimulant to help get food into her, before the enzyme came into play we were giving her up to and over 2,000 calories just to try and maintain her weight and she was happily eating everything we would give her while still losing weight. Now that we've gotten the diagnosis and enzyme it's become a struggle to get any consistent meals into her even with/without enzyme, we're getting very desperate...

Thank you again for your suggestions thus far!

edit: we will also pass along all info and suggestions to her current vet/dr as you suggested, she has been receiving care from MSU Veterinary since her initial bout of severe pancreatitis back in April 2023.

Eddiespaghetti
Member
Posts: 286
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Eddie
My name: Jeremy

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by Eddiespaghetti » 23 Feb 2024, 15:56

If Stella isn't getting the proper amount of enzymes, the amount of food you give doesn't really matter. Olesia has given you some great advice. I just want to add one more. I have had to do this a couple times. I really don't know how good it is long term, but my Eddie boi wasn't eating we had to break down each medicine and supplement individually.
Mix the enzymes with a little water, wait a little bit. Get a syringe without a needle and suck it up and squirt it in the back of their mouth.
Eddie got a little sick back around Christmas and refused to eat for a couple days. We had to do it this way and then hand feed him kibble. One piece at a time. I don't know if this is a long term solution or not, but I know it's fine for 2 days. Once whatever it was got out of him he bounced back to eating normally.
If you go this route make sure to do it after he eats increase he doesn't eat.
3ml Syringe With Cap (100 Pack) | Oral Dispenser Without Needle, Luer Slip Tip | Individually Wrapped Medicine Dropper For Infants & Pets https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SD93N7M?st ... M50GG8CTYV
Olesia's suggestions are better. I just wanted to know you aren't alone when it comes to trying to care for a picky eater.
You might want to look into B12 capsules. Sometimes if they are low in B12 they won't absorb the nutrients.

KonaGirl2020
Member
Posts: 13
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Kona
My name: KonaMom

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by KonaGirl2020 » 27 Feb 2024, 20:43

Hello- My GSD was tested and diagnosed 2/16 at 67lbs, healthy weight was 88lbs. She had already lost her appetite and that’s the reason we took her in. She did not display any other EPI symptoms. We have the enzymes, we got beef pancreas and have FORCED her to eat. Unfortunately, she’s so stubborn she now just leaves the food hanging on her nose. Today we took her to the vet and she now weighs 61lbs, so vet prescribed Entyce (capromorelin oral solution). I gave it to her for the first time just now and will let you know if it worked.

I’m desperate, frustrated, and oh so sad.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Feb 2024, 11:00

Hi Kona's mom,

Often times when an EPI dog has inappetence it is because their B12 is low /very low......
I am glad to her that your vet prescribed Capromorelin for the inappetence.... but just in case your dog is not receiving any B12 supplementation, i'd talk to the vet about giving B12 shots, or just order Pet Factor B12 pills from WOnderlabs..... these pills are made with 1000mcg Methylcobalamin, Intrinsic Factor & 40 mcg Folate. at your dog's weight, i'd give 2 pills a day for a week or two and then drop down to 1 pill daily.

the great thing about B12 is if a dog doesn't need it, they will not over-dose but rather just pee out any excess. Has your dog's B12 been tested???
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

KonaGirl2020
Member
Posts: 13
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Kona
My name: KonaMom

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by KonaGirl2020 » 28 Feb 2024, 13:29

Hi,

That’s what so confusing! Her B12 is in range but, I ordered a supplement on Amazon, which amazingly cannot be delivered until March.

We had to feed Kona with a syringe and we were only able to get about a half a can of food with enzymes. She absolutely LOATHES the pancreas so we’re feeding it to the other German Mix dog, who loves it!

Kona’s poop is literally BEAUTIFUL! I searched for images and she’s between the rated #1 and #2 poops.
Attachments
IMG_0034.jpeg
IMG_0034.jpeg (79.18 KiB) Viewed 370 times

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Feb 2024, 18:38

thanks for the test results... with a 479 B12 level at the time of EPI diagnosis.... i would definitely supplement her with B12.... Unfortunately, EPI dogs B12 if not in the upper mid-range (high 500's or 600's)... has been known to plummet. You can get Pet Factor B12 from WOnderlabs....
https://wonderlabs.com/PET-FACTOR-B-12
......as far as i know there is no back log.. or..... if you want... i can send you some donated Wonderlabs B12 ... just email privately (olesia.kennedy@gmail.com) with your mailing address.

I hear you about the raw pancreas... some dogs simply won't eat it while others will lap it up. Go figure!

Poor Kona..... this must be so frustrating (for both you and her!!) .... I don't think i;d like being fed via syringe either, but on the flip side.... she has got to eat, sooner or later and you are doing the best that you can.

temporarily......... can you skip the commercial dog food and try feeding her scrambled egg with 1/2 banana and see how that goes... and if tolerable THEN add in a tsp of the canned dog food and slowly increase the dog food after a few meals.... in the meantime.... do pour the designated needed enzymes into gel caps. Just trying with desperate suggestions in hopes that something will work... i know this is no where near the 2000 calories you are trying to keep her on..... but it would better than nothing...
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

KonaGirl2020
Member
Posts: 13
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Kona
My name: KonaMom

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by KonaGirl2020 » 28 Feb 2024, 21:09

Hi Olesia- I placed the order while sobbing and chose a subscription because I want to believe she’ll be with us in three months. I just changed it to picking up tomorrow from Amazon Fresh store. Thank you for knocking sense into me.

I will try the egg white and banana with enzymes.

—I forgot to mention—->We noticed that her belly is spasmodic. It is jolting about every 10 seconds after we feed her. The vet said yesterday that it is not bloat. And since she’s not complaining when touched he said he had no clue what to make of it. Have you ever heard of this?

Greyden
Member
Posts: 28
Country: United States
State: Idaho
Pet name: Dot
My name: Greyden

Re: Newly Diagnosed Black Lab Need Help

Post by Greyden » 29 Feb 2024, 12:32

We haven't been on this journey very long but can share with you some of the things we have gone through with Dot.
Dot has had the 'spasms' but now they are almost gone since she is now actually digesting food and finally gaining some weight. So hang in there.
Dot's numbers were very similar to your Kona's. She got one B12 shot and now we supplement her daily with Wonderlabs. That has made a difference in Dot's energy and she seems more alert and happy.
As far as the enzymes: this is where we had a real problem. Dot did not tolerate them at all. No matter how small a dose we gave her, she would throw up. We had to use Creon. At one point, we tried opening the capsule to increase her enzyme dose just a little. That didn't work for her and she (and we) had a very uncomfortable night. So now she gets a Creon capsule with every meal. Since we began the CREON on 13 Feb she has gained 5 lbs. Don't give up - you will find a way.
You can google filling capsules and there is one site that has a template for a little funnel.
As far as getting her to eat - we haven't really had that problem. But we did need to give Dot a stomach med at one point and boiled chicken breast and used the water to get a med down her. Worked well for a while.

Her poo isn't where we'd like it and we are still doing minor tweaks.
There is more than knowledge at you can gain from this site.

There is comfort! You are not alone!

It is a process to find what works for your Kona but you will find it.

Try what Olesia and Jeremy suggest. They always seem to have something else you can try. Others will continue to share what worked for them.
Dot is our day blind 3 1/2 year old half Idaho Shag half Australian Cattle Dog. She was diagnosed with EPI in late January 2024. We continue to try to figure out her best protocol.....

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sherrysabrina and 16 guests