Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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kcblock1
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Location: Cape Cod
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Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by kcblock1 » 06 Dec 2018, 09:20

My Pomeranian Zack was diagnosed a week ago after sever months of yellow cow patty stools. Only recently did he start to lose weight. TLI LEVEL was 2.5 wth B12 and folate within normal range. Ex was for 2/3 tsp of PancreaPowder Plus rwice a day. We are gradually getting him up to a full daily dose but his stools returned to normal within the first 24 hours. My issue is Zack, a six year old, 10-11 lbs dog, whom we adopted in June from our elderly neighbor, had always free fed, so we are hesitant to give him only two feedings a day, not sure his tummy will tolderate. We Re currently doing every two - four hour feedings of Hills digestive care wet food with some ground Digestive Care kibble mixed in. He a,so has a he of seizures so he gets phenobarbital twice a day. Wanting info from other Pom or small dog owners as to frequency of feeding long term. Also wonder if the dose is usually decreased over time, since he responded so quickly. tha is for any advice.
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Kathy Crocker, Cape Cod, MA, USA, Zack is a 6 year old, 10 lb., Pomeranian dx on Nov 6,2018 with TLI of 2.5 after month of yellow cow patty stool. Lost one pound. Stool converted to normal immediately, main issue gastric reflux. Currently on Royal Canin wet food with bits of kibble, ProcreaPlusPowder, Tylan pinch 2xday, B12 injection monthly, weening off compounded Omeprazole. Also receives twice daily Phenobarbital for history of seizures.

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jilbert57
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Dec 2018, 09:37

Welcome to you and Zack! Wow is he a cutie.
I had a 18lb. jack russell. So just so it doesn't sound like I am going against your vets instructions I am giving you the protocol we use on the site and recommended:
1 level teaspoon per 1 cup dry kibble.
3/4 level teaspoon per 1 cup canned food.
Enzymes must be given with any food, not just 2x/day (unless you only feed two meals. What worked best for Mickey was his daily kibble divided in 4 small meals and enzymes with each meal.
What was the B12 level number? EPI dogs do better with upper end of the range so just a normal reading level is not high enough.
If your pup does not have a conflicting condition you do not need a prescription dog food. You do however need to have the fiber content 4% or less as the higher level encourages SID.
As far as free feeding, I think I might try smaller feedings more often. I don't think the wet enzymed food takes kindly to sitting out all day as it would encourage bacteria to grow. Just my take.
And yes, I was able to decrease Mickeys enzymes from 1 teasp per cup to 1/8 t per cup after he was stable. So he eventually got 1/4 c kibble incubated with 1/8 t enzyme 4 times a day.
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Jean
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Jean » 06 Dec 2018, 09:44

A huge welcome from the UK

EPI is manageable, however, I know nothing about seizures, and you are a treasure, and a star, for adopting Zack

firstly, free feeding, you can divide his feeds into small meals but they must be enzmed, the enzymes mixed into the food only lasts ABOUT an hour

can I ask how much you are actually feeding per meal, the rule of thumb is 1 teaspoon enzymes per cup of dry food, slightly less for wet food

2..5 is just EPI , and its brilliant he has responded so well, can you give us the test results fro he b12 and folate tests

keep a diary or a journal with everything you do, and note what works and what does not, it is possible to decrease the enzyme ratio, but as they gat older sometimes it needs to be increase, tweaking is the word, no two animals are the same

let us know

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Jean
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Jean » 06 Dec 2018, 09:44

looks like Jill and I were typing at the same time
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2018, 10:52

Hi and welcome.... as soon as i saw the pic of Zack, i exclaimed, "Oh MY what a CUTIE!!" and my hubby wanted to know, who... who's the cutie? i showed him the pic of Zack and he agreed :)

Okay ... down to business now.

FREE-FEEDING
That is wonderful that Zack responded so quickly to the enzymes..... BUT.... this is a chronic condition so to properly manage EPI, Zack will just have to get used to a few minor changes. No more Free-Feeding.

Seriously. The reason why i am so strong on this is because it sounds like his EPI responded wonderfully to the enzymes... but that's the easy part.... the pain-in the butt, drive you crazy nuts part of EPI, is a secondary condition called SID. (small intestinal dysbiosis). Managing EPI is easy, Managing SID... not so much :(

SID is ever present in an EPI dog, our goal in managing EPI is keeping SID under good control. HOW???! Do your best to not mess up the gut flora any worse than what it is and very often we have to actually do our best to improve the gut flora or clean it up and start again. Some of the signs of SID are as follows:
"repeated yellowish/pale-coloring to the stools, loose stools, iffy-stools, gelatinous stool coating, flatulence, lack of appetite, stomach noises, low or low normal B12, vomiting, acid reflux, excessive lip-licking, excessive swallowing, acting sick"

If you free feed.... this most likely will sooner or later invite bacteria to the food and you'll eventually have a mess on your hands with SID.

I understand that Zack is used to free-feeding.... so you are going to have to get him used to a different system.... i think the way you are handling it now- - feeding multiple meals (4) throughout the day is spot on!!!!! You can even (if your schedule allows) feed him even smaller portions maybe like 6 meals a day (as long as they are 2 hrs apart) until you think his tiny tummy can handle less meals with a little bigger portion. My guess is that he'll be confused for a few days with this new system, but he will get used to it. it just might take a few days.

REDUCED ENZYMES
Next.... the fact that he responded wonderfully to a small dose of enzymes.... IMHO... if this ratio worked for him, then i would stick with it BUT watch the poos (color, texture, frequency, volume) closely.... if it goes south over the next few days/week.... then up the enzymes and use the ratio we suggest as a guideline (1 level tsp of enzymes per 1 cup dry food, 1-2 tsp to 3/4 tsp per wet food.

The rule of thumb is to get the dog "stable" first which translates to the dog consistently delivering normal looking poos at a normal frequency (1-3 times daily) for about a month. Once this happens, then YES!!!! try reducing the amount of enzymes to the lowest dose possible that still maintains the EPI. in your case, i would reduce by 1/16 tsp watch & observe the poos for 3-5 days.. if okay, then try reducing by another 1/16tsp. Do this until the poos gets sloppy and then you know that "oops... you reduced to much"... and go back to the reduced dose that still produced good poos.

B12
If you can, find out exactly what the B12 test result was. EPI dogs need their B12 levels in the upper mid-range of normal. Just normal is not good enough. We aim for a B12 level in the 500's - 600's and higher is great :)
.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Buttermom1
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Buttermom1 » 06 Dec 2018, 12:23

Hello, and welcome!!! What an adorable little guy you have and thank you so much for adopting!!! We were the proud servants of a 6 pound EPI chihuahua. First off, enzymes need to be on everything he eats. Butter only ate a 1/4 cup a day after she was stable, but in the beginning we were feeding her almost a 1/2 cup a day to get her weight back. The enzymes must be on everything you feed. When dealing with such small amounts of food and trying to adjust the enzymes per feeding, we found it easiest for us to fix the days allotment of food every morning, then feed from it throughout the day. We would refrigerate whatever wasn't being eaten, then we allowed a small portion to get to room temperature before we fed that portion. We were feeding 4-5 times a day in the beginning, but once we stabilized we went to twice a day. As for us, we were never able to reduce the enzymes at all. After Zachary is stable, you might (might) be able to adjust, but don't count on it. As for the b12, what were the numbers? As a rule, the EPI pups need to be in the high normal (600 or more), but the little ones need it to be higher and kept high. I don't know why, but they seem to drop very rapidly and they seem to have a harder time keeping their levels up. We were giving oral supplementation as well as injections.
Susan

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kcblock1
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by kcblock1 » 06 Dec 2018, 14:28

Thanks to everyone for such quick responses and useful information. Zack’s B12 level was 458 so I will discuss it with vet. We are mixing a day’s worth of food with enzymes, keeping refrigerated, and letting his portion warm to room temp before feeding . Feeding about every two hours from 6pm to 8-9pm currently. He has been on the prescription diet for about a year. He is a very picky eater so it’s been a challenge getting his seizure med. into him.

He had been spitting up clear, or light brown fluid once in a while initially but today he has had more bouts of regurgitation so we are giving him an anti nausea med per the vet.

Have discussed SID with vet but we are going to think about that after a full week of enzyme replacement, wanting to deal with not too many variables at a time
Kathy Crocker, Cape Cod, MA, USA, Zack is a 6 year old, 10 lb., Pomeranian dx on Nov 6,2018 with TLI of 2.5 after month of yellow cow patty stool. Lost one pound. Stool converted to normal immediately, main issue gastric reflux. Currently on Royal Canin wet food with bits of kibble, ProcreaPlusPowder, Tylan pinch 2xday, B12 injection monthly, weening off compounded Omeprazole. Also receives twice daily Phenobarbital for history of seizures.

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Buttermom1
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Buttermom1 » 06 Dec 2018, 18:41

Excellent decision to wait for a week before making any changes. That's exactly what we advise folks to do. The regurgitation could possibly be a bout of Sid/sibo, but I urge you to read, under that heading, about using slippery elm powder. It has worked wonders for just that occurrence for not only my EPI pup, but for my current non-EPI pup whenever she has a "sour stomach". Bringing the b12 numbers up will also help this. As for the food, generally we recommend not using the prescription foods unless there is another condition necessitating it's use. The simple reason is the prescription foods tend to have a lot of corn in them. This becomes problematic with Sid/sibo developing. You're doing a fantastic job!! It's hard in the beginning, but it will get easier and become second nature. Have a look at the slippery elm powder and feel free to print any of the information on this site to take with you to discuss with your vet.

Susan

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Madelon
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by Madelon » 06 Dec 2018, 23:01

Hi and welcome to our EPI family. Love love love that cute little nugget!!! You’ve been given great advice so I won’t confuse you by adding more, however, I strongly encourage you to keep a detailed log of everything you feed and the resulting poop - it will help you figure out what works and what doesn’t.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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kcblock1
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Re: Seeking info re Pomeranians or small dog regime

Post by kcblock1 » 12 Dec 2018, 10:36

Zack update
He is.doing well with stools consistency normal. Not lossing anymore weight. Still having to give him frequent feedings to get in his full daily food requirement as he still is spitting up after feeding anyway from 10 minutes to an hour after eating. Anti emetic didn't decrease issue so we started Slippery Elm last Sunday with no decrease in spitting.or regurgitate or burping yet. Wondering how long before we may see improvement if Slippery Elm is going to work. Do plan on consult with vet after this weekend to discuss SID. We have detailed logs as Im a spreadsheet but and both my husband and I are retired nurses.
Kathy Crocker, Cape Cod, MA, USA, Zack is a 6 year old, 10 lb., Pomeranian dx on Nov 6,2018 with TLI of 2.5 after month of yellow cow patty stool. Lost one pound. Stool converted to normal immediately, main issue gastric reflux. Currently on Royal Canin wet food with bits of kibble, ProcreaPlusPowder, Tylan pinch 2xday, B12 injection monthly, weening off compounded Omeprazole. Also receives twice daily Phenobarbital for history of seizures.

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