Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Sudallas
Member
Posts: 3
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Phoenix
My name: Cannon

Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Sudallas » 20 Mar 2020, 15:26

I need help. I gave Phoenix his first dose of Bio Case Plus several days ago. He eats meat so I followed the instructions and mixed it in his meat and let it sit for 30 minutes.

A couple of hours later, Phoenix started making these sounds like he was going to throw up but he was laying down. His stomach would heave and he would make this grunting sound. He does not throw up. The Bio Case did control the frequent pooping so my vet said to continue using it.

But this spasm in his gut and grunting has continued. It happens more after he eats. The odd thing is his poop has returned to a dark color and he has only pooped once since I stopped using the powder yesterday.

His vet thinks the spasms are caused by acid from the powder irritating his esophagus and stomach. He gave me a prescription for pain to help his stomach. The vet has not witnessed these spasms. Has anyone else had a pet do this after taking a powder supplement?

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1119
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Olesia711 » 20 Mar 2020, 19:52

Hi
So sorry your dog is having this kind of reaction:

I just looked up the instructions and ingredients (see below). This is the right kind of enzymes BUT the Lipase dose is kind of low and i suspect what is giving Phioenix the immediate after meal cramps could be the Lactobacillis ( in the probiotic ). This might be something Phoenix has to simply get acclimated to over time. Although some dogs just cannot take a probiotic. Normally i would say this is SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) and to treat, and although it still probably is the underlying problem, but the fact that this is happening every single time you give the enzymes (which are needed) something in the enzymes are triggering this kind of reaction.

Please write me privately (olesia.kennedy@gmail.com) with your home mailing address.... and i will send you some enzymes WITHOUT the probiotic or B12 (which should not be included in enzymes but given rather separately on an individual dog's needs basis!) . This way you can give Phoenix the proper enzymes without the additives to see if the additives was the problem... because bottom line is that your dog needs enzymes... so we will have to figure this out.

Also the instructions should say start with 1 level tsp per 1 cup of food , etc.
SOOOOOOOo... my question to you is how much food (how many cups) are you giving per meal with this scoop of enzymes (please measure how much this scoop is- -i suspect it is 1 tsp, but measure to make sure) and please let me know what the name of the food is that you are giving.

I am also guessing that the vet prescribed ether Pepcid AC or Omeprazole to take care of the acid in the stomach, which is perfectly fine.

Guaranteed Analysis per scoop (2.8 g) of Bio Case Plus:
Vitamin B12 (min).............................................. 1000 mcg
*Lipase (dried porcine pancreas) (min)...................... 57,000 USPa
*Protease (dried porcine pancreas) (min)................. 407,000 USPb
*alpha-Amylase (dried porcine pancreas) (min)........ 475,000 USPc
*Trypsin (dried porcine pancreas) (min)...................... 453,000 USPd
*Lactobacillus acidophilus (min)........................ 1 Billion CFU
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1119
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Olesia711 » 20 Mar 2020, 19:54

Oh... i also meant to say, that your dog very well may need prebiotics + probiotics to battle SID, or if this doesn't help or help enough, then you dog may need a course of antibiotics (Tylan).... BUT..... sometimes we just have to strip things down to the simplest form and then add things back one at a time to see what the trigger was that cause a problem.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Buttermom1
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Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Texas

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Buttermom1 » 20 Mar 2020, 23:00

Hello and welcome. May I ask what type of dog you have and how much you are feeding at a time? May I also ask how you are preparing the enzymes and food. Are you allowing the enzymes and food to “incubate”? Are you moistening the food to mix the enzymes into? You say you are feeding meat, does that mean raw? Do you have the tli score? I apologize for the questions, but it will help us help you......
Susan

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Kohlesmomma
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Posts: 42
Location: charleston sc
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Kohle
My name: Kellie

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Kohlesmomma » 21 Mar 2020, 08:00

Hey, I wanted chime in here to see if I can help you as well, because I originally had my dog on Bio-case. When I switched him to the Bio-case Plus, I saw much more improvement than with the regular Biocase. I'm not really sure why they offer 2 different ones since most all dogs require the b12 supplement which plain Bio case does NOT have. My dog did the heaving you described as well. Your dog is NOT the only one. Don't panic. I ended up switching to Enzyme Diane mostly because of cost. You get a more pure product for less money and I supplement the b12 with oral wonderlabs for pets. Oleasia knows what she is talking about and has alot of experience with this condition. She helped me greatly in the beginning of this epi madness. I just wanted to let you know you will get thru this . It wasn't really until I had proper food, enzyme, antibiotics, and b12 in place, and occasional famatodine (for acid reflux)dose that Kohle is now stable. It looked very bleak for my dog in the beginning, and now he is a chunker! And healthy.
Hang in there and learn from Oleasia, she is very kind and knowledgeable.
Kellie and Kohle

Sudallas
Member
Posts: 3
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Phoenix
My name: Cannon

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Sudallas » 22 Mar 2020, 20:16

Thank you, Kellie
I am trying to stay calm through this but it is very hard. I am 67 and Phoenix is my only companion. I love him and need him.
The vet prescribed gabapentin to help ease his stomach ache. But now, this seems to be causing a problem. Phoenix was eating quite well until he started the gabapentin on Thursday.
I give the pill in the evening. He won't poop all day until I give the gabapentin. For the last two days after giving the pill he starts pooping every hour throughout the night. He paces and can't settle. Now, he is not eating even though he has had to mirtazapine to make him eat.
I am getting really stressed. I feel like he needs more bloodwork but they can't knock him out to do them with him heaving.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 912
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by jilbert57 » 22 Mar 2020, 20:46

Your pup is using the gabapentin for pain right?can you try either Cerenia or Tramadol? My pups have all used gabapentin and it just made them sleepy. I just dosed them down and it was fine. Diarrhea and vomiting are both side effects of Gabapentin.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Michaela
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Posts: 43
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Nikki

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Michaela » 23 Mar 2020, 11:00

Nikki has been dealing with stomach issues for years, which I am convinced are related to the enzymes.

Stomach cramps, loud gurgling noises, not drinking/eating, gas/pain, eating grass, colitis.

Test after test at Texas A&M didn't really show much, they think she has GI motility but the meds didn't make any difference. It started out with an episode just every few months and when she was really bad I would take her in for some fluids and she would bounce back within 20 min and started eating/drinking.

About two years ago her episodes happened almost weekly and she was hiding in pain more and more. We had exhausted every test and tried so many things that didn't make a difference, her quality of life was suffering.

That's when I came across Slippery Elm syrup and something just told me to give it a try, we didn't have anything to lose at this point. I had tried SE in the past in powder form and as tea but it didn't seem to help. After two weeks on the SE syrup she started to improve, symptoms were becoming much less severe.

Her vets still don't believe that the enzymes are the cause but I really don't care, I know what I've seen with my own eyes.

Knock on wood but Nikki hasn't had an episode in 1.5 years now :D

Hopefully you get some answers for Phoenix!
Nikki was diagnosed with EPI in 2010
Royal Canin Potato & Duck canned
Slippery Elm syrup for stomach issues
1.5 tsp Pan-Tenex enzymes with each meal
Weekly B12 shots, pills didn't work for her
Tylan for life

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Madelon
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Posts: 875
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Sick after giving powdered pancreas

Post by Madelon » 23 Mar 2020, 19:01

Hi and welcome to our EPI family! I can tell how much your pup means to you by your posts - the love comes through. As Olesia said it's likely not the enzymes themselves causing the issue unless your dog has a sensitivity to pork. I know you're scared and overwhelmed right now, trust me we've all been there, but we will guide you through this and get your pup on track :)

There are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI and without all four in place you won't see optimum results: ENZYMES, B12, ANTIBIOTIC, FOOD

ENZYMES: Most of us use EnzymeDiane Pancreatin 6x - it's much less expensive than the vet enzymes and there is nothing additional added to it like probiotics and B12 (the B12 added to enzymes in most cases is not enough to supplement an EPI dog) - no prescription needed and shipped directly to your home. The recommended starting dose is 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix in a little luke warm water, mix in kibble an sit 20-30 minutes before serving.

B12: Most EPI dogs have low B12 at diagnosis or will develop it and supplementing is for life. You can either do the shots or use the WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills - they contain Intrinsic Factor which can help in the absorption of B12. EPI dogs need their B12 on the HIGH side of normal 600+. Low B12 will affect mood, appetite, weight gain, poop quality.

ANTIBIOTICS: We now know that all EPI dogs have SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) but the key is to manage it and keep it from flaring up. We recommend in the beginning giving the proper dose of enzymes, B12 and food two weeks to see if the gut will correct itself on it's own. If it doesn't then you can try Slippery Elm Bark powder or a 45 day course of Tylan antibiotics.

FOOD: We recommend grain free with 4% fiber or less and avoid or limit peas. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog SHOULD be but in smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day. This can be the hardest part of EPI so buy small bags until you find what works for your dog.

QUESTIONS: What was the TLI, B12 and FOLATE scores from the test? What food are you currently feeding and how much? Are you supplementing B12?

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and the resulting poops so you'll know what's working and what isn't and try not to stress too much - we're gonna hold your hand through this.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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