Epi4Dogs

Olesia, when I make the broth the apple cider vinegar cooks in the crock pot for 24 or more hours.....you don't think that little bit of vinegar diluted in the broth and cooked that long would cause problems? The reason for the vinegar is to draw the minerals out of the bones as they slowly cook.
What do you think??
To clarify, I'm not advocating adding vinegar to food being prepared. And as a side note, I've been preparing the broth this way for at least 2 years now and Riley does not seem to have any trouble with it. So I am anxious to hear what you have to say about that preparation!

Elisabeth..... i do not know the chemical reaction of what the slow cooking heat temperatures do to the apple cider vinegar..... it is possible that the heat destroys some or most of the acid..... i just know that cider itself is an acid and acid will eat away/destroy the enzymes... kind of like the acidic properties of the digestive pH in a dog.... the reason why we have to give so much (71,000 USP units lipase, 280,000 to 495,000 USP of Protease & 280,000 to 495,000 USP of Amylase ) enzymes is because my understanding is that approx 70% of it is destroyed BEFORE it reaches the section where it needs to mix with the food particles and do it's job...

If RIley does well on your technique....(cider processed in a crock pot first) then i would continue...BUT let's be very careful to clarify when we mention the use of cider that apple cider vinegar (or any vinegar) should never be mixed in directly with the enzymes simply because it is an acid and acids may destroy the enzymes.

Maybe the next thing to look into is what does cooking (crock pot temp) does to the composition of vinegar.

Don't you just love feeding EPI dogs?????!!!! All these little details that we have to be aware of!!!!

well... i just learned that using a little vinegar in pasta keeps it from sticking to one another.... but have not yet found an answer if cooking heat diminished or destroys the acid in vinegar..........
https://www.finecooking.com/article/the ... of-vinegar

"It keeps pasta from sticking. When pasta is cooked in alkaline tap water, calcium and magnesium ions in the water can cause the pasta to release more starch, making it sticky on the surface. Adding a tablespoon of vinegar to the pasta water acidifies the water and reduces stickiness. "

... nearest i can find- -but then i have only looked at science related info on Dr. Google- -and we all know that is not always the most accurate source of info...., is that cooking doesn't appear to destroy the acidity of vinegar.... but when added to water, the more water, the more dilution. However... what also is mentioned is that the longer vinegar is cooked with another liquid (water), and when that liquid evaporates, the stronger the acid becomes just because the dilution with that liquid (water) has diminished...


I honestly would rather have someone well-versed in chemistry answer this question with real knowledge on the matter... not just what i am finding on the internet........... but for now, let's just be very clear to tell people to not mix any cider/vinegar directly in with the enzymes

Maybe the little amount you are using in a whole crock pot is enough of a dilution with other liquids to not make that much of a difference. My concern would be what if it is enough of a difference for someone else's dog...........

Sorry, didn't mean to send you off researching all day
So, no cider vinegar from now on!
I suppose that the bones cooked over time still release what they need to. And the bottom line is they mask the taste of the enzymes and that's my goal. Sorry for stirring it up!

Geez... don't ever apologize..... this was really fortunate that this came up. SOOOoooooo glad you mentioned it! After all.... what if there is someone out there adding apple cider vinegar directly to an EPI dog's meal and then mixing it with the enzymes... and wondering why their dog isn't doing so well.......

Maybe because when you use the vinegar, what 4 tblsp??? it is in enough "liquid" that the acidic properties in the cider is diluted enough for Riley.... my concern is that this might not work as well for all other dogs....

Again, NEVER apologize.... this was a very good discussion..... and maybe someone else reading this will have a chemistry background and can give us some good answers. But, if nothing else.... i learned something new today..... i am going to start tossing a tsp of vinegar in the water when i cook my pasta

Ok first, this is a good discussion about broth! LOL

On my normal picky eaters I have used broth to get them to eat, but since we're still trying to gain weight, I think I will stick with the canned food. Then once we're at an ideal weight I can move to broth.

The pancreas was more for a treat/supplemental, but I see the risk it could add... Hmm.

And I did get test results confirmed EPI. Her TLI was 1.1 ( I think that's the important result?) And folate was really low too, but b12 was great.

I'll have to let you know about the hemp oil I ordered. She's already doing so much better actually. And no, I don't have a dog 'of my own' right now! Yesterday I picked up another foster, Oso, who is also a german shepherd. We're working on eating and resource guarding and it's going great! Oso is pretty much the polar opposite dog, so they're a good match, although he has slowed down our walks a little. LOL. He's 86lbs to Roxanne's 55lbs, so he lumbers while she sprints. Ha! Between the other dog and our multiple daily walks around the neighborhood, Roxanne's settling and a little less reactive. She's still high strung, but that just may be her claim to fame!

Jean- I hope you get answers on your back. People scared me with stories, but finally getting surgery was the best thing I did.

If Roxanne's TLI was 1.1. she does indeed have EPI .............. BUT.... what is of interest to me is the Folate score... if it is lower than 7.7..... that is an indication that she also has small proximal intestinal disease,.... which can be many things but the most common thing is IBD, or a food sensitivity.... and jsut a FYI, lots and lots of EPI dogs have both EPI + IBD..... so this is not a big surprise. What this does mean thou is if her stools are good... stay the course with whatever you are doing... but if the stools are sloppy what you probably need to look at first is the diet to get the IBD/Sensitivity under better control. We suggest two different ways to approach this... (1) either strip the food down to 2 simple ingredients and give nothing else... and slowly add 1 ingredient at a time, keep good records/ and watch to see what triggers the poo to go downhill. or..... (2) talk to your vet about trying a true hydrolyzed prescription dog food..... there are only 4 kinds.... and you never really know which one is going to work best for which dog, but in general the 1st one we suggest trying is the Royal Canin "Ultamino" prescription hydrolyzed dog food. It is made with corn starch as the filler and this one appears to agree with more of our EPI dogs than the other brand. Of course, there are no guarantees, but at least it is a place to start

Hope this helps a little.

Glad you liked to broth discussion... althou i couldn't find the answer i was looking for, i still learned some new stuff

Her folate score was 5.2... BUT she has had great poo, because I've been watching. I'm going to take her to get weighed later on this week so we will see if she has gained.

I would talk to your vet about IBD as Olesia mentioned. Reading through your thread, my first suggestion was going to be changing the food as most EPI dogs don't do well on food with grains and the fiber needs to be 4% or less. When I read about the itching, again my first thought was a food sensitivity. After Doc was first dx he was plagued with skin infections, itching, pyoderma, ear infections, etc. I suspected a food sensitivity as I had changed food because of the EPI - after doing the NutriScan Food Sensitivity test my suspicions were confirmed - he was sensitive to many things! Once I switched food based on that test and keeping with the EPI guidelines his issues resolved.

As for reactiveness, my boy is off the charts reactive to other dogs. I have worked with trainers and have at least gotten to where I can handle him and redirect him, but he always has that initial reaction. I don't think my boy will ever get to where he is not reactive and I've accepted that - we make adjustments to our walks/outings.

Hang in there and keep us posted!