Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Kimchi
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Merle

Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Kimchi » 06 Jul 2022, 11:17

Hey folks!
I'm running into the classic issue of my pup regurgitating liquid and I could use some advice.

I believe I have lowered her enzymes the lowest I can before poop quality lessens (1/8th-ish tsp per 2/3rd cup food) - pup is 18 pounds

I have tried
*famotide
*metoclopramide

And am currently at 3/8 tsp (started at 1/8th) of slippery elm (which we started a few days ago)

I'm at my wits end. Washing my sheets and carpet daily is wearing me down hard and she doesn't seem to be enjoying it much either.

Any advice would be awesome, you have noooo idea.

User avatar
Fuzzysmom
Member
Posts: 15
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Fuzzy
My name: Melanie

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Fuzzysmom » 06 Jul 2022, 13:59

Hi sorry to hear about your issue.

Fuzzy was on slippery elm. It helped him immensely at the beginning of his epi journey to treat sibo and then to keep it at bay and regulate his system. I reduced him to 1/8 a tsp once a day for maintenance once he began to get regular good poops. He weighs 175lbs.

After a few months of doing o.k. he had loose stools, including liquidy ones, multiple days a week and it was driving me nuts. I swapped out proteins, got rid of bone in meat, kibble only etc. nothing worked for more than a few meals.

I noticed the poops were pale yet turned brown rapidly once outside the dog telling me food was going through too fast.

I began to leave out the 3 times a week probiotic because he had it in his food. That helped some.

One day I forgot the slippery elm and the poops corresponding to those meals were prefect. I reduced the SE to 1/16 and still the same issue. I then cut it out completely.

He is now completely off the slippery elm and the extra probiotics and he's had the best poops ever, for 2 months straight. I keep them on hand for sibo flares, but he hasn't had one in months.
Fuzzy is a Boerboel dob 8/29/19 diagnosed by TLI 1/5/22 Ideal weight 175lbs + Still growing so he's fed to lean body condition for growth. After regulation enzyme amt. went from 1 tsp a cup>1 1/2 tsp per meal> NOW 1/2 tsp per meal!

1st meal: 2 cups Inukshuk Marine 25 2 cup raw blend(tripe,organs,beef) 1/2 tsp Pantennex 2 B12,
2nd : 1 cup Inukshuk Marine 25 , 1cup raw 1/2 tsp Pantennex

He is completely off the slippery elm maintenance amt (1/8 tsp)although I keep on hand in case of sibo. 2 Prescript Assist Soil based probiotics every 4 days

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Jul 2022, 14:33

What is the diet? Is it grain free?
Are you supplementing with B12 daily?

Thanks for answers. Sometimes a 45 day course of Tylan is needed.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Kimchi
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Merle

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Kimchi » 06 Jul 2022, 15:21

jilbert57 wrote: 06 Jul 2022, 14:33 What is the diet? Is it grain free?
Are you supplementing with B12 daily?

Thanks for answers. Sometimes a 45 day course of Tylan is needed.

Jill
She's on purina pro plan sensitive stomach. Which I don't beliiiieve is entirely grain free 🤔

I do not currently have anything that specifically states it has excess b12 - would you recommend something like that in place on Slippery elm?

I'll also Google tylan!

I'm very new to this epi thing - and there's so much info on this site, it's quite overwhelming 😂

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Jul 2022, 15:47

Would you mind giving us some more information on Merle? At diagnosis, what were the lab results for the Tli test and were the B12 and folate results available also? It would help us.
Grains can interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes so this could be contributing to the issue. Looking at the ingredients it has a lot of rice, corn etc which might be interfering.
If your dogs B12 was low at diagnosis weekly shots are given for 6 weeks or oral supplementation started.
Are you incubating the food with water and enzymes for 20 minutes before serving?
Thanks for additional information.
You should know in a few days if the slippery elm is working.

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guide-usa/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Jul 2022, 16:03

Hi Kim, and welcome!

Did your vet do a fasting blood test to confirm Merle has EPI? If so, they probably also tested B12 & a few other things. Can you please post the results of those tests, if they were done? You'd know if they were, because it would have cost a few hundred dollars.

There are four cornerstones to managing EPI--

Diet---grain free...some suggestions are Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs formula, and Taste of the Wild, Pacific Stream. Both available on Chewy & Amazon (usually)

Enzymes---1 teaspoon to 1 cup of kibble. Many of us use https://enzymediane.com/

B12---Wonderlabs B12 Pet Factor, from the company or Amazon, or some vets give injections

SID---EPI dogsALL have it. It IS recommended to stick with slippery elm for a couple of weeks, but personally I think it's hard to deal with vomiting or diarrhea for that long. This is just my opinion, as there are many successful endings, using slippery elm. Jill mentioned Tylan, an appropriate antibiotic & you may need to ask your vet to prescribe it. https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-management/

Please feel free to share this wonderful website with your vet. Years of research have gone into the information contained here.

I hope this helps, and I hope you & your vet can get Merle's tummy under control soon.

Take Care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

Kimchi
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Merle

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Kimchi » 06 Jul 2022, 17:41

Hey folks, thanks for all the answers and posts in regards - truly

My vet did not test for b12 unfortunately

It sounds like I should eye a new diet and ditch the purina - and am I correct to believe slippery elm is not an instant aid but one that can take a few days or weeks to take effect?
If that's the case, should I lessen the amount I'm giving (I'm currently at 3/8 tsp)-pups stools are fine at the current amount but if I don't need to be giving so much I wouldn't mind saving a few scoops

Oh, and I do incubate for 20 mins!

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Jul 2022, 19:05

Here's the dosage chart. They say with slippery elm less is more, but then not messing with success is also a good adage to follow. And, yes, you are supposed to give it a couple of weeks and see if you get relief.

(If it's too much of an issue, you can go ahead ask your vet for a prescription of Tylan. You would need enough for about 50-60 days, to include 45 days of therapeutic dosing & several days of slow weaning off it. Some dogs take it permanently. Tucker takes 1/16 teaspoon every day, forever.) He takes Tylan & slippery elm --- Tylan in the morning, slippery elm at dinner. Nobody suggested this, but it's this kind of tweaking we all have to do, to get it right for our own dogs.


slippery elm dosing---

1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs,
¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs,
½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs,
3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs,
1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs.



Tucker(80 pounds) takes two capsules, NOW brand, which contain a total of 800 mg. Be careful to figure out the exact measurement of the scoop you are using. Just fill the scoop with salt & dump it into a kitchen measuring spoon to do this.

If you can, then do ask your vet to test for B12. Tucker's was at 666, which is good, but I supplement him anyway, just to be safe. If they don't need it, they just tinkle it out. If it's a burden to get the test, it's fine to go ahead & give the brand I mentioned before.

Did you post the TLI results on another thread? If not, can you please do that? --- Pam
Last edited by Tuckaboo Pam on 06 Jul 2022, 19:10, edited 1 time in total.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Jul 2022, 19:08

Your ratio would be 2/3 t enzyme per 2/3c dry food. I would go to the correct dose of enzyme and see if that helps.
Can you call the vet and get the result for the Tli?
As Pam pointed out folks have good luck with the Sport dog food she linked.
Most dogs have low B12 when diagnosed so I would either get the shots or supplement orally.

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

I would say get a food that fits, get the correct ratio of enzymes to kibble, get the B12 and raise the level and Tylan if needed. Once all if the are addressed things should settle down.
Sometimes with the correct food and enzymes the SIBO clears up and antibiotic is not needed.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Kimchi
Member
Posts: 8
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Merle

Re: Slippery elm not cuttin' it

Post by Kimchi » 06 Jul 2022, 19:16

jilbert57 wrote: 06 Jul 2022, 19:08 Your ratio would be 2/3 t enzyme per 2/3c dry food. I would go to the correct dose of enzyme and see if that helps.
Can you call the vet and get the result for the Tli?
As Pam pointed out folks have good luck with the Sport dog food she linked.
Most dogs have low B12 when diagnosed so I would either get the shots or supplement orally.

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

I would say get a food that fits, get the correct ratio of enzymes to kibble, get the B12 and raise the level and Tylan if needed. Once all if the are addressed things should settle down.
Sometimes with the correct food and enzymes the SIBO clears up and antibiotic is not needed.

Jill
Are you sure adding more enzymes won't make the regurgitating worse? In my head that makes sense but again, new to this so 🤷🏼

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Patsy and 228 guests