Epi4Dogs

Hi -

On Monday we got delivered our wonderful new dog who came to us as a rescue. His foster did an incredible job bringing him back to health and we want to continue his improvement now that he’s in our care.

* He was diagnosed EPI in March
* Since diagnosis and through diet/enzymes, he’s doubled in weight to 60 pounds (although he still looks better thin)
* he travelled to us from Texas (we are in the PNW)
* His diet is 1.5 cups Pro Purina sensitive, .25 cups sensitive Science Diet (salmon/rice) wet, 3/4 teaspoons 10x enzymes, 1 capsule b12, 2 teaspoons ‘Perfect Poop’. When he got to us on Monday, he had good formed poops.

Since being with us, he isn’t eating his normal food. His BM have gotten to be almost pure liquid and he has vomited 2x in the last 24 hours (after we are able to convince him to eat something).

I know transition is stressful and that dogs can often opt to not eat. I am more concerned about the status of his BMs and his vomiting.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated- thanks

Hi Dan and welcome to you and Jax. So he just has no appetite? Did they tell you how to prepare the food with the enzymes? I agree it takes awhile for some pups to get used to surroundings.
I am wondering if he might have SID(SIBO)which is an overgrowth of bad bacteria in the gut. I am glad the food seems to be working as usually a grain free diet is needed. The graIns in the food interfere with the
efficacy of the enzymes.
Do you know if Jax has been on a antibiotic at all? Will you post the results of the Tli, B12 and folate?
Is it bile vomit or food vomit? Could be acid reflux.

Jill

Welcome from the UK

this COULD be the stress of moving

do you know for sure he had formed poops

ok strange question here

in UK we have soft and hard water areas which means that

Hard water is water that has high mineral content (in contrast with "soft water"). Hard water is formed when water percolates through deposits of limestone, chalk or gypsum, which are largely made up of calcium and magnesium carbonates, bicarbonates and sulfates.

we live in a soft water area in Liverpool

soft water does not have the deposits

could the water be different in Texas ?

has he been eating grass ?

excellent point Jean about the water.... i have a non-EPI dog now..... and same thing... when we go to the mountains and he drinks well water, his poo is PERFECT!!!
When we are home (at the shore) his poos go soft...........

Maybe buy bottled spring water and see if that improves the poo............
if not... my guess is after the stress of everything new subsides.... you need to look at his regimen.

I too question how "perfect" his stools were previously.. because if that is what they were feeding him, they were under dosing him with the enzymes.... which may have worked or they did not tell you the truth becuase of the expense of the enzymes and he needs more enzymes...

The 10x Enzymes are Pantenex enzymes and they are equivalent to EnzymeDiane's 6x enzymes. Thy both have approximately 71,400 USP units of Lipase.. Pantene enzymes are NOT stronger than the 6x... they are equal.

If the underlying problem is the insufficient amount of enzymes based on the amount of food you are giving him, i would give him 1+3/4 tsp of enzymes with the meals.

If the underlying problem is the food (it has grain in it) then i would change the food.... HOWEVER... if he was doing well on this food when you got him... i suspect it is not the food... but rather they might have been giving him more enzymes then what you were lead to believe or there was a misunderstanding

OR..... he might have been doing well on the food, but now what is happening is that SID is getting out of control... ALL dogs with EPI have SID... our goal is to keep it in good control. This is something that just happens with EPI dogs....... To do this the SID regimen is as follows:

1. first try a prebiotic (slippery elm is often used)
2. if that doesn't work try adding a pre+probitoic) we suggest either Proviable, or Visbiome, or Mercola Complete Probiotics... start with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week.
3. if the above two options don't work after a few weeks... THEN... ask your vet for a course of Tylan soluble powder antibiotics (DO NOT LET THE VET GIVE YOU METRONIDAZOLE!!!!) Give the tylan with food breakfast and dinner for 45 days.

hope this helps.
please keep us posted!

What an amazing thought Jean!
In my area, the Peak District of Yorkshire, the tap water is soft from local reservoirs filled with either rain or open streams from gritstone moorland, (as in our avatar) very pure with minimal chemical additives. Epi dog Marti was fine with it. On our visits to the in-laws near London, water was hard, from aquifers in clay and chalk. Plus chemicals galore nearer London. Marti and Bobby wouldn’t touch it for anything, preferring rain puddles. I filled bottles at home to take with us, just like Olesia said. Our former local member of Parliament, who had a guide dog, also used to take Sheffield tap water to London when attending Parliament!
Sounds like research project for a veterinary student PHD.

thanks Patsy for chiming in on this topic about water.... i am finding it VERY interesting!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you all for the replies -

The guy is doing a little better today - poops are more formed and no vomiting. The foster had really good luck getting his EPI in line, and his first couple of poops at our house looked completely normal. Things fell off afterwards, even though we were recreating her diet 100%.

The water is interesting for sure, and I do believe that we have softer water. Also, this guy has been nibbling plants a bit and I found out that hostas are poisonous to dogs - maybe that was it? Lastly, heat wave here and no AC. Our other dogs weren't affected by heat (but when do labs ever turn down food), but maybe that's reducing his appetite as well.

Olesia711 wrote: ↑29 Jul 2022, 11:30 ...

I too question how "perfect" his stools were previously.. because if that is what they were feeding him, they were under dosing him with the enzymes.... which may have worked or they did not tell you the truth becuase of the expense of the enzymes and he needs more enzymes...

...

Sorry, the "Perfect Poop" was a reference to a supplement that she added to the food (I am not yet a judge on poop perfection)

https://www.amazon.ca/Digestion-General ... B07L6QC3TW

Am definitely open to updating his diets to the recommended standards here

Adored Beast makes a product called gut soothe, which I use with Mary Isobel Catherine Bernadette O'Brien. It really seems to help, although her vomiting issues are still a mystery and she's been here since December.

Hey V---Is MICBO a cat, too?

So I have hard water, and Tuck's poop has never been tootsie roll-firm. Are we thinking it could be an EPI hard water thing, possibly? All my other guys have normal poop, except for now as I've introduced probiotics to all of them. Or, maybe just new water to a dog used to the other kind, maybe. At any rate, I HATE HARD WATER!!!! Deposits on everything, and I have to use much more soap & detergent. --- Pam