Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
maya193
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Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by maya193 » 02 Aug 2022, 12:49

Hello everyone! So I found this article from dogs naturally magazine and wanted everyone's input. I was intrigued when I saw an article on EPI and SIBO in dogs. According to this article, dogs with SIBO need what they call "the correct pre and probiotics" to manage SIBO well. Hmmmmm.....

Here is the quote from the article: " As mentioned earlier, probiotics with Lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium strains will make SIBO worse. That’s because probiotics have to travel through the small intestine to get to the colon (where they belong). And on their way, most probiotics will feed the bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine. That helps SIBO multiply … and compounds the problem. So you might see an increase in your dog’s digestive symptoms … like diarrhea, flatulence, constipation or acid reflux.........Instead, you need to use soil-based probiotics (SBOs) for your dog with SIBO. SBOs are spore-forming bacteria that have a protective outer layer that lets them move safely through the small intestine until they get to the colon. Once in the colon, they’ll get to work supporting beneficial bacteria throughout your dog’s GI tract. Don’t make the mistake of making SIBO worse with the wrong kind of probiotics!"

And here is the article link: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/s ... l-options/

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this. I know I've been having a LOT of trouble managing SIBO....it comes and goes...I've tried numerous different types of probiotics to no avail.......and I'm always looking to improve. :)
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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Olesia711
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2022, 14:07

whatever you do, PLEASE do not take their articles or anyone's article as gospel... but do your own research by reviewing MULTIPLE research articles ... for one thing, i can blow holes in this statement " As mentioned earlier, probiotics with Lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium strains will make SIBO worse. " because (for example) you CANNOT paint the Lactobaccilllus as one bacteria.... there are hundreds of Lactobacillus strains that ALL do different things and some can create a positive effect on SID (SIBO) for almost a year, where as other Lactobaccillus strains can only make a positive effect for about a week, while some other strains do nothing and while some of the Lactobacillus strains can make things worse! So whoever wrote this article DID NOT represent what they were told (or researched) accurately.....

Unfortunately i have seen this happen a LOT with magazines, and/or news media publishers.... they interview you and then reduce the interview to talking points to fit within so many words and by then what they state is no longer accurate.

If you want to learn about various bacterial strains in dogs...., i highly suggest you read gut flora research by Dr. Jan Suchodolski who is now considered the premier gut flora vet researcher in the USA... we have some of his research here on this website .. but he has so much more that may interest you on his TAMU listing:
https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/staff/dr-jan-suchodolski/
and i know there is at least one (maybe more) that actually lists many, MANY different strains and what they do or can improve or cause problems with.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2022, 14:12

IAlso.... i am so sorry you are having a tough time with your dog's SID.... i often think SID is so much more difficult to handle than EPI itself!!! So i feel for you.
But the problem is that every dog's gut flora has it's own unique composition... so it is a misconception that all these "one-size-fits-all" probiotics currently on the market is going to work for all dogs...... it is a lot of hit and miss. What we try to share with people here on the forum are those products that "appear" to have the best "batting average" with many of our dogs... but even that is not guaranteed.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

mrockwoo
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by mrockwoo » 02 Aug 2022, 15:02

This "article" isn't an article at all.

It's an advertisement disguised as an article that uses information overload and scare tactics to drive you to purchase their soil-based probiotic mix. Common online sales marketing tactic for dietary supplements.

"Instead, you need to use soil-based probiotics (SBOs) for your dog with SIBO." And it links you to their online store.

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Patsy
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Patsy » 02 Aug 2022, 15:23

Roger M. Batt is a highly respected senior UK vet. Dogs Naturally magazine has plagiarised badly a paper he presented In 2002. As far as I know, most magazines have sponsored articles to promote products.
Mr Batt mentions pre and probiotics but his treatment suggestion is a months worth of antibiotics.
I don’t know if this link to the original paper works:
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/def ... id=3846192
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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Olesia711
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2022, 15:41

Yes!!! Dr. Roger Blatt is highly regarded in the veterinarian community... but learning about SID/SIBO is like peeling an onion... when he wrote that research back in 2002 it was thought that SID/SIBO was a "secondary" condition that may or may not develop in EPI dogs..

More recently, because of better technology and more research they have since discovered that ALL dogs with EPI have SID/SIBO to one degree or another....

it is really fascinating to follow research and advances regarding the gut flora... they are now uncovering so much that they didn't know before and we are now learning that there is so much more we don't know.... yet.

A long time ago, one of the veterinarian researchers taught me that nothing is absolute.... but to always be ready to debunk something you stood by if/when new /better research comes along and disproves the old way of thinking...........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2022, 15:43

Mike... you are 100% correct.... ALWAYS be careful of articles that then lead you to a product they are selling.

Over the years i have seen many cases where they cite a researcher's finding and tie it to their product as if to claim endorsement.... one must be very careful!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by maya193 » 02 Aug 2022, 18:44

Has anyone used soil based probiotics and had good results?
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 02 Aug 2022, 20:24

Debbie--- Have you considered Tylan for SID? I ask because Tucker takes 1/16 teaspoon daily, also Proviable & slippery elm. Occasionally SID flares up, but for the most part he does well on our routine. --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Re: Pre and Probiotics for SIBO?

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Aug 2022, 21:44

i tried the soil based probiotics recently on my non-EPI dogs.... and it was a bust..... but then again, every dog is different.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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