Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Aug 2022, 15:42

Interesting thank you. I am not sure the enzymes are doing anything since Epi nor Pancreatitis is present.
Maybe an IBD?
Are all his blood results good?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

SallieS
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 15:50

We have not done a general blood panel to my knowledge. Should I request one from our vet? She has not talked to us at all about IBD or anything else.

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jilbert57
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Aug 2022, 15:55

Since it is not Epi I was wondering if any blood levels were off that could help you to go in a direction.
Thanks. Others will check in here soon see what they might say.
Any chance you could take a picture of the results and post it here?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

SallieS
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Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 16:52

Jill, I’m sorry I missed your last sentence. I’ve run out to the store for a few minutes and will take a picture of the results as soon as I get home.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 13 Aug 2022, 17:06

Hey Sallie, even though it's not EPI (yet?), keep writing. So many members have dealt with other issues as well as EPI, and you are bound to get some good advice. I wonder if Ruger may be one of the dogs that segue into EPI over time. Tucker was always underweight, and he ate everything in the house and also poop, but he wasn't diagnosed until he was 5 years old, after constant, horrible diarrhea permanently set in. Can you ask your vet why they gave the diagnosis, with that score?

Flagyl is metronidazole, so you may want to introduce a good quality probiotic, in small amounts & build up to a full dose. His tummy probably needs them. I use Proviable, and at 95 pounds Tucker gets a little less than the entire capsule.

My maltipoo, 10 pounds, had long term diarrhea during the covid shut down, and she was given metronidazole. Her symptoms ceased, but she was bad again, as soon as the pills were gone. She now gets Pepto Bismol daily, Tylan once every 10 days, and she eats Fresh Pet. For the most part she is pretty well off. I think the vet said he thought Ruthie had IBS or IBD, but we'd have to do an ultrasound or something else that was pretty expensive, to label it correctly. We kind of just figured it out, asking the vet for approval with every change. I am sharing this because of the diarrhea. --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

SallieS
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Pet name: Ruger
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 18:13

These are the test results. I hope I did this right. If not, I’ll try again.
4FAC3002-1FA2-43D3-AB68-51259FD08D3C.jpeg
4FAC3002-1FA2-43D3-AB68-51259FD08D3C.jpeg (4.26 MiB) Viewed 605 times

SallieS
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Pet name: Ruger
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 13 Aug 2022, 18:20

Pam, I guess in all fairness, our vet did not come right out and say point blank that Ruger has EPI. I may have misunderstood. I knew we did the test and she said his numbers were on the low side of normal and then gave us the enzymes. So my thought was that we were dealing with EPI. Now, I don’t know what we are dealing with again. I guess I’ll try changing his food and see if that helps. I was going to try to give the enzymes time to work some magic, but it sounds like that may not happen so I may as well go ahead and change the food. If the enzymes really don’t work, I’ll definitely ask ask the probiotics and Pepto to see what the vet says. Last time I asked about the probiotic she said he did not need them.

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Olesia711
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Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Olesia711 » 13 Aug 2022, 20:18

Hi Sallie,

Thanks for giving us the background information.... that helps us better help you. Although a TLI score of 13.3 is not EPI.... when you see these kinds of symptoms... then you need to leave the door open that one possibility is that Ruger "might" be working his way to becoming an EPI dog.... or not.... so don't fully dismiss this possibility even though right now, he is not an EPI dog.

We have seen a few cases where the TLI score comes back in the teens. Definitely not EPI.. although they had all the physical EPI signs. . however, within a year the dog did segue into an EPI dog,... so just keep EPI on the back burner just in case .... and giving enzymes (if they appear to improve things) will not hurt if given temporarily when not EPI.

Because the beginning of the poo did come out normally, but then the ending part mush.... sometimes this is an indication that there is something askew with the small intestine..... or it could be something else.

did they run a CBC panel, and if so, can we see those results? were the liver enzymes (specifically the ALT) elevated? what was the Albumin level at?

Based on what you shared with us so far..... the next thing i would ask the vet to please try would be Tylan tartrate antibiotics... NOT metronidazole (flagyl) to see if this is possibly SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which a dog may have even without EPI and the physical symptoms are the same as EPI. Is the soft poo light in color (yellowish)... is it like soft serve or is it like grainy? Feel free to post a poop pic in glorious color :) ... as all joking aside, it helps us better help you.
Normally i would suggest a pre+probiotic first and then Tylan.... but if he is having so much diarrhea and that underweight.... might as well try the TYlan now and if it does help.... then start adding a pre+probiotic to his regimen to help.

Has your vet suggested possible food sensitivities.... not allergies? this would be a next step.... to try a little hydrolyzed food and just see if that improves the poos or not.

Oh... some things that we STRONGLY suggest when trying to figure out what in the world the problem is...

1. is to ALWAYS try only one-change-at-a-time and give it a few days (3 to 5 days) before you try the next change.
2. keep a written record of the changes and the results

By doing this it will give you and your vet a better picture of what might be going on. Here is a page with templates on creating a "LOG".. of course, we call it an EPI log, but you can use it for any kind of gastro upset: https://epi4dogs.com/epi-log/

I know this is going to sound crazy... but record when the poos happen, before, after or during a walk or some kind of exercise. Do they get more sloppy if there was a time of a lot of excitement ( good or bad) .

Another thing i would do is ask your vet (if you are not already doing so), especially with the soft stools.... is add an Omega 3... i personally now use Welactin Omega 3 liquid (not the capsules!) https://www.welactin.com/welactin-canine ask your vet if this would be appropriate for a 5 month old young dog.......

I read that you already have slippery elm in your cart... make sure it is the powder so that YOU can control the dose. Also.... if it helps but not enough, as another one-thing-at-a-time to try is add a little Marshmallow Root powder with the SLippery Elm powder..... like the slippery elm, you use very little of the marshmallow root.... i would start with 1/8 tsp mixed in with his food once a day..... watch the poos.... if it helps or makes them looser- then stop it... if it helps, then see if he can tolerate 1/8 tsp breakfast and 1/8tsp with dinner.

Oh... and the last thing........ the meals.... the last thing you want to do with a dog that is having digestive issues is to feed large amounts of food... i understand that your vet wants you to feed more, and he/she is correct... BUT..... (and this could also be why he reverted back to so much loose stools again) you need to feed more food throughout the day BUT in smaller portions.... so what we suggest is breakfast, lunch and dinner. If you aren't around for lunch then feed breakfast before you go to work, lunch when you return from work and dinner maybe an hour before bedtime.

Hope this helps a little and looking for to hearing more from you...........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
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Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 14 Aug 2022, 11:23

Sallie, have we established that Ruger was fasted from all except water for twelve hours prior to his blood draw?
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

SallieS
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Ruger
My name: Sallie

Re: Ruger - New Case Trying to Stabilize

Post by SallieS » 14 Aug 2022, 12:02

Hi Olesia and Pam,
Thank you so much for your suggestions and information. I really appreciate all you are doing.

To give a quick update, he only pooped twice yesterday, but first thing this morning he had a large poop spread out over 4 places. It started with shape and still on the soft side, but I could pick up the first couple of pieces. It then quickly got softer and softer and ended with thin mush. To me, it has a grainy texture and I’ll post a picture (thank you for offering that option). I don’t think I am seeing any mucus after the deworming, but I’ll continue to look.

He did fast for 12 hours before the test.

I’m planning to call the vet again tomorrow morning to request a blood test and maybe an X-ray to see if there could be a foreign object. He is a puppy and eats everything and anything he can get his mouth on. Lol, I’ve become really good at fishing things (including a butterfly one time) out of his mouth. I’m also going to ask about changing his food and/or Tylan. My thought is if the grainy poop indicates undigested food then the enzymes may not be working so we need to investigate other things. Do you think I’m on the right track? I’m not a medically inclined person, so I don’t want the vet to think I am questioning her ability, but I feel I need to press forward. Am I going too fast?

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