Epi4Dogs

This was after I tried to pick up. Shows the texture better, I believe.

no you are not going to fast. this is your dog, your family member and you need to be "invested' in his health... You are not questioning the vet's ability BUT you want a vet that will work with you.

Just in case this is EPI in the making....EPI is not a "common" ailment, so a lot of vets are not current with their knowledge on this condition... "if" this is what might be going on. If not..... you and the vet need to work together to figure out what is going on. As this could be so many things... so what you can do to help your vet is start keeping a journal / log that i mentioned earlier.

since you are seeing the grainy yellow poo..... first thing i would ask the vet to run is a CBC blood panel.... to give you a feel for what is out of whack and what values are trending high normal or low normal.

you will want to see if the white blood cells are elevated or low, and if any of the liver enzymes are elevated , if the albumin is low.... to name a few........

Definitely ask the vet if you can start giving Welactin Omega3 oil..... and depending on the CBC panel..... if any of th4e liver enzymes are out of whack... you can give SAM-E.... it is amazing how many times once you know what is trending in the wrong direction, you can remedy with helpful natural supplements ... other times you need meds.

And i would ask for a short course of Tylan (Tylosin tartrate) ..just to try if this even helps ... because if it does, this will be a HUGE clue that there is an issue in the small intestine. And of course if it works... then you can continue with a full course. if your vet agrees.... and then you can also talk to your vet about implementing probiotics. WIth Tylan if it i going to work, you should see some sort of positive results within 3 to 5 days.....
also on the list is slippery elm... and possible Marshmallow root powder... both just a pinch.

For example.... my current dog also was having yellow grainy poo... and the end of pooing..... his ALT liver enzymes was elevated, (he is a 1 yr old dog and this started when he was about 6 mo old too!) and other liver indications were normal but on the high side..... so i started him on the Omega 3 liquid and SAM-E... within 2 days.... poo went back to normal... i have removed organ meats from his diet, and now give him more fiber (like slippery elm) tested each one separately with better and better results .... and they will run another blood test in 3 mo. It is possible that this happened to my dog from giving him food with too much copper in it for his system , or it could be something else......... but i am working with my vet and doing a lot of process of elimination. It could be nothing more than the wrong type of food, or some contaminant in the water, or, like you alluded too, something stupid that they ate.... even weeds (which my dog is ALWAYS chomping on... grrrrrrrrrr..... or it could be that something really is wrong, addisons, liver shunt, kidney issues, cushings, IBD, IBS, PLE... the list goes on and on....

Remember, your vet only sees your dog at a visit and runs tests... but you see and live with your dog everyday.... you have the opportunity to gather much more information that you can then share with the vet to better help them help your dog (my little plug about why keeping a journal can be of great benefit!)

Hope this helps and if a CBC panel is run, please feel free to post here ...
And yes... do post a poo pic

ahhh... just saw the poo pic.... THANKS.

Interesting.... this doesn't look like the typical EPI poo..... it almost looks like gastroenteritis without the pink or purple coloring... so that rules that out too...........
but... is your dog drinking enough water? Possible food sensitivity to something??? Next.... please start feeding smaller meals.... and after seeing this poo..... the first thing i would try is adding a little more fiber to the diet.... maybe cook some brown rice, add 1 or 2 tblspoons of that to a meal and see if that makes a difference (better) or not.. and of course, adding a pinch of SLippery Elm is also a fiber/mucilage and prebiotic... ... but jsut give a tiny amount of slippery elm, maybe 1/8 th tsp.... add a tblspoon of water with it.

Remember transit time can be (immediate) or anywhere from 12 hours to 72 hours after a meal is consumed. Throw in a few tiny chunks of raw carrots or whole piece of corn... in 1 meal... when you see these items show up in the poo.... mark how many hours from that meal to that poo... and that is your dogs current "transit" time...

This will help you figure out what meal produces which poo.

The next thing i am wondering, is some sort of infection??? Bacteria??? so maybe if the above doesn't do anything, then do ask the vet for some Tylan.... either your vet can get it for you or your vet can give you a script for it.....

https://www.chewy.com/tylan-soluble-pow ... keyword%7D

and i would definitely ask the vet to run a CBC blood panel. (these are not expensive)

Thank you so much for your help. Words can not express how much I appreciate your time and knowledge and kind words. I’ll definitely call tomorrow and give an update on the poops and ask for the blood panel. I have started the journal and write in it each meal and poop.

I can put the carrot pieces in his food and measure the time and I can add the brown rice to see what that does. I’m still giving the enzymes at this point.

If you don’t mind, I’ll let you know what I find out. Hopefully we will find something out soon so that we have a direction.

you are very welcome.

Ask the vet if they already ran a CBC blood panel and if they did, ask for a copy of it (and share it here, i'll go thru it for you) ....
If they haven't then tell then you want a CBC blood panel run (and when done ask for a copy).

I am so sorry for throwing so many things at you... but diagnosing or figuring out what to focus on with gastrointestinal issues is not always an easy task, a lot of the preliminary work is guess work trying to decide on what to focus on. .....

Our dogs can't speak, so it is up to us to be their voice, and to gather as much information as possible to hopefully give some clues to the vet as to what might be going on.

ALso.... if you haven't already, i'd share that poop picture with your vet....

In the meantime, please do try things, one-at-a-time, record the results and please do feel free to share with us your step by step... sometimes it's a minor detail that will put us on the right path of diagnosis.

Just an example... one of our EPI folks couldn't figure out why her dog's poos just never firmed up on matter what she did, she started keeping a journal.. recording all the ingredients in various food, it took almost two years... but the common denominator / answer was that the food that had a minor ingredient in it (sunflower seed oil) that was the trigger... once she figured that out... it was clear sailing / perfect poos .

And yes, i would try everything one-at--time and continue with the enzymes.... at a later date, after you try these things... if you find something that appears to really work and improve things... then you can try removing the enzymes and see what happens..........

Good afternoon from the UK

Can i offer my support and say I have seen vey similar poo coming out of my Kara she had a very bad attack of SID small inestinal Dysbiosis and was shedding the lining of her bowel please do not panic she was ut on scrambled egg and mashed potato, no meat of any sort and antibiotics

as this isnt EPI could this be SID and/or an intolerance to some proteins

Kara was intolerant of most meats except lamb, she could never tolerate chiken or rice in dog food

take a deep breath, write everything down

Thank you all so very much. Your support is something that no words can explain. Thank you is so small to say, but please know I really, really thank you. I called our vet this morning and we are going to do the blood panel and an ultrasound tomorrow. I’ll post results as soon as I receive them.

Dumb question, would the SID show up as an infection on the blood work or how do you know if you have it?

No question is dumb! Most dogs that are diagnosed with Epi also have SID. You ususlly can diagnose it by symptoms: sloppy poops, rumbling tummy, gas, acid reflux. Also low B12 encourages SID so you need to make sure the B12 level is in the upper high range. A high folate number can indicate SID also.

https://epi4dogs.com/sid-testing/

Jill

thanks Sallie for letting us know that the CBC panel and an ultrasound will be done tomorrow..... good call on the ultrasound!

I am anxious to see the test results..

And Jill answered your question on SID.... technically there is no way as of yet to accurately diagnoses SID.... it often accompanies an underlying condition, although it can happen on it's on, and then you go by the symptoms:

"SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) / SIBO & TREATMENT

Because of the very nature of EPI (pre-diagnosis/treatment) undigested food/ bacterial imbalance/not enough different bacterial strains/ excessive fermentation … all this combined triggers SID/SIBO in all EPI dogs. Goal is to get SID under good management.

The best way to assess SID/SIBO is by (1) symptoms and (2) accompanying medical ailment, in this case EPI, and treat early on for best results. Years ago, it was thought that only high folate test results indicated SID. This has since been proven wrong. Folate test results such as Culturing, Counting bacterial numbers, and Duodenal juice collection all have majors flaws in their technique rendering them inaccurate indications of SID/SIBO, but rather “the type of flora and/or how the host and flora interact is most important.” Recent studies have revealed that all dogs with EPI have SID. The goal now is to keep SID under good control. Unfortunately, with EPI dogs, research has also recently proven that EPI dogs do not have enough of a variety of bacterial strains nor enough bacteria overall.

SID is not under good control if the dog displays any repeated signs such as yellowish or pale colored stools, loose stools, gelatinous stool coating, flatulence, lack of appetite, stomach noises, vomiting, acid reflux, low or low normal B12 then treat for existing secondary SID/SIBO. In trying to keep SID under good control, much success is seen with prebiotics (FOS/Fructooligosaccharide). FOS is a soluble dietary fiber, a non-digestible food components that is fermented by intestinal bacteria. FOS is most abundant in Inulin (Chicory Root), Jerusalem Artichokes, and Slippery Elm powder which has prebiotic and mucilage properties. This may lead to more normalization of the intestinal microbiota.

If just a Prebiotic doesn’t work or doesn’t work well enough, try a prebiotic + probiotic. If this 2nd option still doesn’t work well, then you will need to resort to an antibiotic regimen to get SID/SIBO under good management. A 45 day regimen/twice daily with breakfast and dinner of Tylosin Tartrate antibiotic is recommended. Metronidazole is no longer recommended for any dog with chronic gastrointestinal issues.

In some cases, if the Tylosin is not working, then try Amoxycillin (which may or may not work) or try Oxytetracycline which often does work. Tylosin appears to work best for the majority of EPI dogs with SID/SIBO.

Hey Sallie & Ruger - Welcome to the EPI Family. It is certainly a difficult process to figure things out and I remember how scary it all was for both Onza and Ziska. If indeed Ruger proves not to be EPI, he may be better able to tolerate Royal Canin Gastrointestinal dog food and they do have it in puppy formula. Chewy is where we get it for our non-EPI GSD, Hanzel. But keeping a log is crucial and not to change but one thing at a time. For both Onza and Ziska we gave B12 capsules with intrinsic factor that we purchased from Wonderlab. We also had better luck with a Salmon variety grain free food rather than food with chicken. Again, welcome and hopefully the poops will improve soon. Hugs!