Sushi's Saga

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Aug 2022, 14:51

WOW!!!! What a fabulous picture of Montgomery...... he is looking REALLY good!!!!!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Montgomery
Member
Posts: 418
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Montgomery » 25 Aug 2022, 14:58

Thank you! He's sooooo much better now!
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats extra lean ground chicken, lean ground pork and lean ground beef completed with Alnutrin and freeze-dried chicken liver, with hard-cooked egg. He gets two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's enzymes at each of his six meals, and a size four capsule of Tylan three times a day. He's a fierce little Spitfire with a roaring Merlin engine.

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2089
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by jilbert57 » 25 Aug 2022, 18:07

V- love the picture. Hope thays in the calendar!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

User avatar
Montgomery
Member
Posts: 418
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Montgomery » 25 Aug 2022, 20:31

Thank you!
I sent it, but I never know what will be used. I like the surprise.
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats extra lean ground chicken, lean ground pork and lean ground beef completed with Alnutrin and freeze-dried chicken liver, with hard-cooked egg. He gets two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's enzymes at each of his six meals, and a size four capsule of Tylan three times a day. He's a fierce little Spitfire with a roaring Merlin engine.

Beatrice
Member
Posts: 44
Country: Canada
Pet name: Sushi
My name: Beatrice

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Beatrice » 26 Aug 2022, 09:58

Montgomery wrote: 25 Aug 2022, 20:31 Thank you!
I sent it, but I never know what will be used. I like the surprise.
Hi V-that's one handsome cat. Thanks for your input. We need to board her this Labour Day w/e coming up. I am just going to tell my husband sushi is coming along or I stay home to take care of her.
TLI 3.1
1 Pet Factor B12, 1 small scoop of aventi GI complete pre/probiotic
Enzyme Diane in EC HPMC delayed release capsule (1 full capsule + 1/2 capsule for each meal)
Nutrience Grain-Free Subzero Prairie Red (up to 2 cups if no other meat given)
AM 1/2 cup of kibble, plain yogourt with 1/2 banana
Noon 1/2 cup of cooked meat + boiled egg
3:30pm 1/2 cooked meat + boiled egg
6pm 3/4 cup of cooked meat
9pm 1/2 of kibble
apple, peanut butter snacks with enzyme capsule

User avatar
Montgomery
Member
Posts: 418
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Montgomery » 26 Aug 2022, 14:54

I hear you. I'd be nervous leaving my pets, too!
Have a good holiday!
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats extra lean ground chicken, lean ground pork and lean ground beef completed with Alnutrin and freeze-dried chicken liver, with hard-cooked egg. He gets two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's enzymes at each of his six meals, and a size four capsule of Tylan three times a day. He's a fierce little Spitfire with a roaring Merlin engine.

Beatrice
Member
Posts: 44
Country: Canada
Pet name: Sushi
My name: Beatrice

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Beatrice » 27 Jan 2023, 14:55

Hello everyone,

Happy New Year to everyone.

Sushi has been on EnzymeDiane 8X since August 2022. She has been having level 2 to level 6 stools,either a couple of days of level 2 poo then anywhere from level 3 to 6 poo. Or 1 or 2 level 2 poos then a couple of level 3-6 poos. I must admit, we have been indiscreet a few times with not giving enzymes with snacks causing the bad stools.

present weight=19.6 kg (increase of 4.6kg since she’s been on enzymes)

I asked her vet in September to test TLI, B12 and folate. Vet said “noone does that. Testing one specific thing to confirm the suspected diagnosis.” She wanted to first, do an ultrasound of the pancreas then blood tests and hopefully not, a biopsy. I got the impression she was not convinced that it’s EPI since Sushi has never had pancreatitis. She said if the dog doesn't have diarrhea anymore then don’t worry.

Up until November 2022, we were incubating the enzymes as suggested. In December 2022, I bought enteric-coated empty gelatine capsules and fill them up with enzyme powder. Assuming that 50% of the enzymes are destroyed by stomach acids, I gave her about 1/2 of the enzyme normal used with the incubation method. One improvement with the encapsulated enzymes is that she doesn’t stink anymore. (Woohoo!!!)

One day in December, my husband found that he didn’t have to stoop and scoop. Then he witnessed her in the act. When he told me, my stress level went through the roof. I have so much anxiety since her diarrhea starts and especially, when she keeps us awake at night. Now to deal with her eating her own poo. We follow her around when she goes into the yard. She prefers the runny ones.

Through EPI Canada, an EPI dad recommended his vet who diagnosed his dog with EPI. Sushi was finally tested and the results are attached.

DIET-divided 6 times

Grain-free kibble (Nutrience Sub-zero) 2 cups (we still have some royal canine which is not grain-free-we mix a tiny bit of Royal Canine each time until it’s finished)
Cooked ground beef 200g
Boiled egg 1
Treats up to 45 minutes post-enzyme
1/3 of a banana

Pre/Probiotic Aventi GI Health suggested dose according to her weight daily

Pet Factor B12 1000mcg/day (started Jan 24)

Her poo is not consistent at the desired level 2. I was wondering if it’s too little enzyme? too much enzyme? or SIDS??? Or giving the treat up to 45 minutes post-enzyme?

Everytime that she passes a soft stool, my husband blames me for giving her the cooked meat, boiled egg and treats which lead to more bacteria growth. He insists only giving kibble will give the desired poo. It just happened that she gave good poop the day he took her out of town with him and throughout her stay away from home. He only fed her kibble.

When she came home, I gave her only kibble, 1/3 of a banana and some treats and although formed and segmented, her poo was softer. The poo can be picked up without residue but definitely cannot bounce.

Of course, the husband “I told you so”…So, Sushi gets kibble only, 3 cups a day. I know me, next week, Sushi will start getting her snacks again.

So now what next???

[img]Sushi results{/img]
Attachments
Sushi results.png
Sushi results.png (298.89 KiB) Viewed 3916 times
TLI 3.1
1 Pet Factor B12, 1 small scoop of aventi GI complete pre/probiotic
Enzyme Diane in EC HPMC delayed release capsule (1 full capsule + 1/2 capsule for each meal)
Nutrience Grain-Free Subzero Prairie Red (up to 2 cups if no other meat given)
AM 1/2 cup of kibble, plain yogourt with 1/2 banana
Noon 1/2 cup of cooked meat + boiled egg
3:30pm 1/2 cooked meat + boiled egg
6pm 3/4 cup of cooked meat
9pm 1/2 of kibble
apple, peanut butter snacks with enzyme capsule

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Jan 2023, 16:59

thank you SO much for contacting us about your pup and for all the details. VERY helpful. The 3.1 TLI test results is what we call SEPI. Sub-clinical EPI. The fact that you are treating her for EPI is perfect. What you will want to do is in about 3 to 6 months, re-test her (TLI) to see if she is segueing into full blown EPI or if things are improving.

The iffy stools could be one thing or a combination, especially when dealing with very possible EPI in the making.

One thing i noticed is the low B12.... this in itself can trigger iffy/loose stools. Glad you started giving the WOnderlabs Pet Factor B12 pills you will need to give them for a while before you can ascertain if they are helping and if maybe B12 was the problem or part of the problem.

THe other thing is that what you are describing (iffy poos) could be SID..... sometimes improper enzyme dose can trigger SID to no longer be under good control...

Or.... sometimes something else, like a non-optimal diet can trigger SID to be out of control .

It can be difficult to figure out what is the underlying cause....... SO.... the number #1 suggestion is to start keeping an EPI Log, record everything you give her (or skip) and record the results......even take poo pictures so you can compare what works and what doesn't .... BUT.... the most important thing is to try "proofing" what does and doesn't work by making only 1 change at a time and giving it 3 to 5 days to see what the result is.

The first thing i would try is to increase the enzymes. The enteric coated capsules you are using are designed to activate at a 5.5 pH level which is the human digestive tract pH level.... our dogs have a pH level of approximately 1. with enteric coated enzymes we suggest opening the capsules and sprinkling the enteric coated pellets onto the food.... but you can't do that cause you are using powder in these capsules...... SO the first thing i would do is play around with
HOW you give the enzymes..... does your dog ALWAYS eat everything you give ??? if so, then

1. try giving the capsule with just a little food about 5 minutes prior to giving the bulk of the meal. see if this improves things
2. or try including a little more enzymes in these enteric coated capsules.... as it is possible that not enough enzymes are being used.

ALso when it comes to food.... (as it ight be the food) when you make a change, add in some chopped raw carrots to that 1st meal (that you changed) then check out ALL the poo eliminations and when you see some of the raw carrots pieces appear in the poo.... that is what your dog's "transit time" is... in other words, from when they ate a meal to when they eliminated it... it can be anywhere between 12 hours to 72 hours!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect what you are seeing is probably SID..... but why it is happening is what you need to figure out.

WIth the food..... try a meal with only the kibble and add the chopped carrot... and watch for eliminated carrots.... this will give you the transit time

Afterwards... try a meal with only the burger added... no banana, no egg..... give it the "transit time" to pass and record how these poos stack up to the previous stools.

THen try adding the egg and do the same... and then do the same with the banana.

If there is no discernable improvement or worsening.... then it could be the kibble and that it just doesn't have the right composition. WHich Nutrisience Grain Free kibble are you using so i can look at the ingredients??????????

The other thing could be the probiotic.... some just don't agree with all of our dogs. You might want to try stopping it for a few days (as another one-at-a-time trial) and record how the poo is... you might have to change or it might not make a difference at all.

And of course, if this is SID, which i suspect it is, and if nothing above seems to improve things, then you probably will want to do a course of Tylan antibiotic
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Beatrice
Member
Posts: 44
Country: Canada
Pet name: Sushi
My name: Beatrice

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Beatrice » 27 Jan 2023, 17:30

Thank you Olesia. I am going to start fresh again. I have tried the carrot, adding thing one by one but of course not too discipline with the methods. So now, will be much stricter.

HOW you give the enzymes..... does your dog ALWAYS eat everything you give ??? if so, then


No problem here. She wolfs everything down. Sometimes I hear a crunch and wonder if she chews the capsule.

I was thinking to increase the enzyme too. She gets 2 caps/meal with each cap about 3/4 full. What I will do is to fill one capsule up and start with this.

The other thing could be the probiotic... I was thinking to halve this dose.

I will keep Sushi on kibble only for 1 week. Then increase enzyme dose as stated above for 1 week. After this, then decrease probiotic. Then we will see how it goes.

Image
TLI 3.1
1 Pet Factor B12, 1 small scoop of aventi GI complete pre/probiotic
Enzyme Diane in EC HPMC delayed release capsule (1 full capsule + 1/2 capsule for each meal)
Nutrience Grain-Free Subzero Prairie Red (up to 2 cups if no other meat given)
AM 1/2 cup of kibble, plain yogourt with 1/2 banana
Noon 1/2 cup of cooked meat + boiled egg
3:30pm 1/2 cooked meat + boiled egg
6pm 3/4 cup of cooked meat
9pm 1/2 of kibble
apple, peanut butter snacks with enzyme capsule

Beatrice
Member
Posts: 44
Country: Canada
Pet name: Sushi
My name: Beatrice

Re: Sushi's Saga

Post by Beatrice » 27 Jan 2023, 18:13

https://www.petsmart.ca/featured-brands/nutrience/dog/nutrience-grain-free-subzero-dog-food---prarie-red-31463.html?cgid=50001381&fmethod=Browse

my [url] is off.

This is her kibble. It does have peas, lentils. I can't find any grain-free food without these. Sports dog elite is not available in Canada. TOW pacific stream is available but at the time, my husband was not crazy about the fish smell.
TLI 3.1
1 Pet Factor B12, 1 small scoop of aventi GI complete pre/probiotic
Enzyme Diane in EC HPMC delayed release capsule (1 full capsule + 1/2 capsule for each meal)
Nutrience Grain-Free Subzero Prairie Red (up to 2 cups if no other meat given)
AM 1/2 cup of kibble, plain yogourt with 1/2 banana
Noon 1/2 cup of cooked meat + boiled egg
3:30pm 1/2 cooked meat + boiled egg
6pm 3/4 cup of cooked meat
9pm 1/2 of kibble
apple, peanut butter snacks with enzyme capsule

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 236 guests