Bad Breath

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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PipersMom
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Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 11 Sep 2022, 12:21

Hi, Piper has been doing great but recently we had to go to an internist because she was getting lots of vurps. He changed her diet from The Farmers Dog Beef Recipe to me cooking her food for her. It is also a lot lower in fat. For one days worth of meals her food is 6oz 93% cooked ground beef, 1.5 cups of mashed sweet potatoes, 1oz pumpkin puree, 1oz cooked steel oats, 1 tsp of hemp seed oil and of course I add the 1tsp of panacre ved to each meal. It sits for 30 mins before serving.

However since this new diet which is so healthy for her, she now has bad breath. Her stool is great, OH and she now takes prilosec each day.

I am wondering what I can give her to help the bad breath. She does not appear to have SIBO as her stool is fine and her belly has not been gurgling.


Thanks in advance 😊
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

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jilbert57
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Re: Bad Breath

Post by jilbert57 » 11 Sep 2022, 12:25

Can you tell me if it smells of something? Such as metallic, fish, ammonia etc...
Glad the homemade diet is working.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 6 and Sadie is 8months.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Chance
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My name: Andrea

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Chance » 11 Sep 2022, 13:58

I wish I could help! But not certain I can. My dog did have terrible breath when first diagnosed, and again recently with a SIBO flare. He's still on meds, but his breath is back to normal.

If it's not EPI/SIBO related, is it possible there's a bad tooth somewhere?

My other dog had bad tartar build up, which lead to terrible breath. Teeth cleaning helped, but very temporary. I sprayed colloidal silver on his teeth (which he actually liked), which helped immensely! But if the breath is coming for "inside", I'm not sure it would help 🤔 But it's inexpensive to try!

I'm not certain if antacids affect the breath. But I have read low stomach acid (can be a side effect of antacids) can cause bad breath..

I normally feed a raw diet. Since SIBO had gotten really bad and he'd gone off his food, I have been cooking his food. (Mostly various meats/fish. But less than 10% veggies (I including eggs, sweet potato, carrots and ginger)). Animal products is always at least 90% of his diet, even with raw. Hopefully going to be transitioning back to our regular raw diet soon 🙏

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Olesia711
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Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 11 Sep 2022, 15:11

with EPI all dogs have SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) ...... we now understand SID has been brewing for quite a while in EPI dogs before anyone notices anything is wrong and even have them tested for EPI. If EPI/SID related..... That "stench" smells like dirty socks rotten egg, baby spit up..... (we did a study on this believe it or not) . Once the dog is properly diagnosed with EPI and enzymes are prescribed.... the "non-technical" explanation of what happens is kind of like the enzymes are now digesting all the nutrients from the food ingested and all the undigested food particles (from before given enzymes) are now being shaken loose and what you sell is putrefaction. When we did an online survey, the things that helped clear it up or reduce the stench was: B12, Change of Diet, Change of Enzymes, More Enzymes, Tylan Antibiotic, TIME...... the thread that connected all of these possibilities was as soon as you got SID under better control, the "stench" either went away or subsided. And all of these options are things that can help improve SID since they are all connected. However, with some dogs, the owners claimed it never went away.......

So... if the whole body stinks like this, or around the mouth or the top of the head.... then this is most likely what you are dealing with.............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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PipersMom
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Posts: 117
Country: United States
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Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 12 Sep 2022, 05:26

I can not explain the the smell. It is not metallic or rotten eggs. I do not smell it in her fur, just her mouth and muzzle area. She recently went to the vet and there is no buildup on the teeth (they checked and I actually asked about them when I was there). She is on B12. We actually had to change the dose because her recent test had it too high so we adjusted it to become within range again. Diet changed to homemade. I do have Tylan here but need to get more to keep on hand. I actually make capsules and keep them. I will ask about the enzymes and amount of them. I use 1tsp for 10oz of food at each meal.

I will mention this to the Internist when I call him this week. I think I will call today.


Oh I also noticed that her stool changed when I switched to homemade. It became very soft. That concerned me. So I give 1tsp of psyllium powder to each meal and it helped the stool firm up. Then her bowel went from twice a day to once a day. Doctors were not concerned and said that was fine.

Ugh, I hate when my baby is is not well. I just hope it is something easy to correct. I get so much anxiety worrying about her.
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Sep 2022, 10:28

hi Shawn,
thanks for sharing those details. i know how frustrating this can all be.

Your comment " her stool changed when I switched to homemade. It became very soft." means that the current diet is not optimal... that is great that you added Metamucil and it worked.... we tend to use Slippery Elm for the same reason, except that Slippery Elm is milder.

ways to handle this would be to
1. tweak the diet a little bit..... take out the "1oz cooked steel oats, " this may be the issue with the homemade food.
2. or... increase the enzymes by pinch to compensate for using steel oats.

Unfortunately many times veterinarian nutritionists will prepare a diet for an EPI dog and it has grain in it (they are going by old research, thinking it i fine)... if pet parents go by home made diets on the internet... that too doesn't understand working with an EPI dog's digestive system.
However, all this being said, it is VERY important to include the right amount of vitamins, minerals & bone matter.... and too many folks don't realize this, but a vet or vet nutritionist does.... so kudo''s to you on this part.

Now.... to explain why i am suggesting to remove the steel oats... first..... to see if this removal improves the poo.... is because with EPI dogs, they HAVE to be on porcine pancreatic enzymes to survive. The problem with enzymes though is that fiber can destroy the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between 0% to 50%.... and we have no idea which EPI dog will be affected by how much. SO..................this is why we strongly urge EPI parents to start with a low fiber content food (NO GRAIN!!!!) in the beginning and then once the dog becomes stable then try adding some grain (start with rice) to see how well or if at all the dog can handle the grain.

And there is more to the story...... all EPI dogs have SID to one degree or another. One thing about SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) is that fiber (certain types) is what helps improve SID.... but if you give too much fiber or the wrong kind of fiber to an EPI dog https://epi4dogs.com/fiber-in-the-diet/... OMG.... you will literally worsen SID in an EPI dog. This is a real conundrum and in order to manage it you need to only use a small amount of the right kind of fiber...and it is best NOT to include (at least initially) fiber in the food, but rather include it as supplement that you can control how much how little/type.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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PipersMom
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Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 12 Sep 2022, 10:57

@Olesia711 (dont know how to tag someone here)

Thanks for the information. I have already premade food with the oatmeal so I will try to make a batch without. However I will read that article but want to ask, is Sweet Potatoes good for her diet? Is this considered a fiber? If so why is this guy giving so much? But if it is allowed still why so much? I am just venting I guess. This nutrtional vet gave me this diet but it seems off to me. But again I am far from any expert. She has been getting that much oatmeal in all her meals for a year now so that is why he kept it in. But I will remove it.

The minerals/vitamins I have for her (that he said to get) are Annamaet Enhance https://annamaet.com/products/enhance/. He said to give 1 scoop of it for a daily meal. I mix it in a days worth then portion out two meals from it. But from reading the container it should be two scoops for her weight but they may have changed it because of the EPI. I have no clue.

I am sorry I am getting very stress as I do not like to feel as if my baby might get sick as I want her well.
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Sep 2022, 19:48

I am so sorry you are getting stressed....... it IS hard in the beginning because with EPI you are given a set of rules, but then what nobody tells you is that you start with the basics.... but you usually will end up tweaking things one at a time. AND that tries one's patience!!

Yes Sweet potato is a carb and fiber but it is a good fiber for "most" EPI dogs... but then again, not all....

First try removing the steel oats and see if that helps give it 3 to 5 days... if not, then feel free to add it back to the diet and lessen the sweet potato content and see if that helps or hinders the soft stools.

If neither seems to help.. then try increasing the enzymes,,,, by 1/8 of a tsp .... if that improves things but just not enough, then try increasing by 1/4 tsp of enzymes

The best thing to do is to start keeping a journal. record everything and this will help both you ND your vet figure out what works best for your dog.
EPI Log 8-2017.pdf
(404.61 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
I have included an EPI Log template that might help you figure out what to keep track of.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 2864
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Bad Breath

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Sep 2022, 19:49

oh... and no need to tag anyone here.... just mention the name and type away..... but that was very sweet and considerate of you to want to make sure you do things correctly :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
PipersMom
Member
Posts: 117
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Piper
My name: Shawn

Re: Bad Breath

Post by PipersMom » 13 Sep 2022, 08:35

Thank you very much. Things were going so well for a year and then this stupid internist went and changed everything. I am just hoping we stable out again.

The other thing that has nothing to do with EPI is that she also has USMI (Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence). She has been on Proin since she after her spay which we believe caused this. We are trying to lower the dose but they have given her Incurin now. This is a hormone which is causing tons of licking of the vulva because that is plumping up and she is starting to feel things as if she never were spayed. So that is an added stressors. We are going to lower the proin now as that can enhance the feeling the hormone give.

Sorry for the long explanation but you can see we are trying to deal with two different things at the same time. I wish he did one at a time but nope.


Anyway, I printed the chart and will be making food tomorrow. I will leave out the oats and report back.
Shawn, from NJ. Piper is ChowChow, German Shepherd, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Bluetick Coonhound, Border Collie, and Pit. Born 8/28/19.

EPI Diagnoised
: 4/7/21 (cTLI-1.8, B-12-<150, Folate->24). Started Enzymes 4/8/21. Piper's weight is a steady 50lbs. Lowest weight 42lbs. As of 4/5/21 B12 was 505.
Daily Meds: PancreVed Powder with each meal, B-12 1000mg every other day, Proin 25 mg BID, Gabapentin 150mg BID, Proviable-Forte Capsule, Priolosec 20mg and Incurin .5mg. If needed: Carprofen, Cerenia. NOTE: Trying Mercola Complete probiotics BID and stopped the other.
Current Food: Homemade food by me with a vet nutritionist recipe that has added vitamins and minerals.

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