Foul Gas

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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korilee74
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Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: Louisiana
Pet name: Belle
My name: Korin OBrien

Foul Gas

Post by korilee74 » 26 Oct 2022, 10:35

My mothers dog is a mini Australian shepherd with EPI (diagnosed and treated about 2 years now) - no SIBO flares since being diagnosed - she *was* gets 1 tsp Enzyme Diane (6x) warmed with 1/4 cup water & 1 Cup of Kibble at every meal 2 x per day (1/4 tsp slippery elm with evening meal) and a b12 (pet factor with intrinsic wonder labs) every morning. Her brother (a toy version) was switched to a raw diet (has his own issues) so we switched her as well (couple weeks now, maybe almost three) ... she's actually OVER weight so she's getting 5 oz raw (darwins) each meal, still 1 tsp enzyme diane, b12 with breakfast and slippery elm with dinner. The raw food is soooo cold that we soak the bowl in hot water to try and warm it up.

Process is this - add enzymes to bowl with warm water (reduced to 1/8 cup because the food is so wet already), measure and add raw food (5 oz) and stir, then we place the bowl in another bowl of very warm water to warm up the food while it sits for 30 minutes (ends up like soup, broth if we add an entire 1/4 cup water). Her gas has been SO FOUL for the last week and a half and we've started hearing tummy rumbles, but poop is still firm. She does have allergies, and normally she gets 1/2 a pill each morning, but we ran out a day ago, but the gas has been going on since well before we skipped an allergy pill. If this is SIBO is it *because* we switched to Raw? does this mean she shouldn't eat RAW? we really hope we can keep her on it, I feed my cats raw and my previous dog thrived on it (came back from the brink after switching him from kibble to raw) & the little one is thriving on it (he wouldn't eat ANY kibble, he'd nibble then walk away, so picky, too many enzymes in his pancreas, allergic to chicken - vet says keep him away from "warm" foods)

Belle is between 25 & 30 lbs, 3 years old VERY hyperactive and brilliant young lady
Beast is between 9 & 12 lbs, 2 years old and a shivering, shaking scared of his shadow anxiety ridden little boy

Any thoughts or advice?

Jane&Clyde
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Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Jane&Clyde » 26 Oct 2022, 14:30

The first thing that jumps out to me in your description is the use of "warm" to "very warm" water. Enzymes should never be heated. Anything above around 120-130 degrees can kill the enzymes. I would suggest bringing the raw food to room temperature before adding the enzymes. Also, you want to check the dose of enzymes that is being given. I don't know how much 5oz your raw food measures by volume (cups). The starting dose of enzymes for wet food is 1/2 teaspoon per cup if the food is in big chunks, 3/4 teaspoon per cup if the food is minced/ground. If these things don't work, then the best guesses are either SID or the food not agreeing with the pup.

P.S. I'm also in Louisiana and have an Australian Shepherd mix pup (no EPI for this one).

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Patsy
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Posts: 264
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Patsy » 26 Oct 2022, 14:44

Foul gas and rumbles that send people running out of the room is SID to me. The enzymes won’t change it. Only antibiotics can fix it.
What started it ? Hard to say, it lurks in dogs eating commercial food too. I found that the stink came before any change in the poop, so I went straight to the vet.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

korilee74
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: Louisiana
Pet name: Belle
My name: Korin OBrien

Re: Foul Gas

Post by korilee74 » 26 Oct 2022, 16:52

Thank you! and I will clarify

Warmth of the water: its straight from the tap, I seriously doubt hotter than 120 (not even hot enough for me to feel much discomfort when washing my hands with it) <-- but we will definitely try warming the food and THEN adding the enzymes :) thank you for that

as to the volume, I'm not sure, I'm going to assume that 5 oz is just over 1/2 a cup but I will measure that tonight at dinner and find out for sure; the raw food is like ground chicken/mince so perhaps we should scale back to 1/2 to 3/4 tsp - anyone know the sign's/symptoms of giving too much enzyme? (I myself am still new to this, just starting living with mom again and learning to help care for her dogs)

I'm thinking SID/SIBO also :( ... I assume there is a test for that before treating her with antibiotics? should we add yogurt or kefir to her bowl (i ready some others do that)

Additional question - if we are feeding her raw/wet food - what is the significance of the amount of water suggested to use with the enzymes - i assume the water is for the purpose of dissolving/activating the enzymes before adding them to food or the only way to get them to "stick" to dry kibble - so how do we find out if we need to adjust the amount of water now that she is eating wet food (so gross the soupy mess it becomes, although you'd never know it by the enthusiasm with which she scarfs it down!)

OMG it just occurred to me that we WERE feeding her Darwins (and more is on its way) but we ran out and have been supplementing with Tuckers Raw until the order arrives...

Tucker Ingredients:

Turkey, Turkey Organ Meat, Turkey Bone and Marrow, Pumpkin, Taurine, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin Supplement

vs

Darwin Ingredients:

antibiotic-Free Meat (74.64%): Turkey Necks (including bone), Turkey Meat, Turkey Livers, Turkey Hearts, and Turkey Gizzards; Organic Vegetables (24.66%): Sweet Potato, Lettuce, Carrots, Squash (seasonal), Celery, and Parsley. Special Nutrient Mix (0.77%): Organic Flax Seed Oil, Sea Salt, Inulin, Cod Liver Oil (source of Vitamin D), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin E, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Iodine.

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Jane&Clyde » 26 Oct 2022, 18:45

I agree that the symptoms are probably SID. There isn't a test for SID, but all EPI dogs have it to some degree.

Thanks for the additional info. I noticed that both foods have vegetables in them that are relatively high in fiber. Some EPI dogs do fine with fiber, but the vast majority of them are negatively impacted by too much fiber. Somehow fiber can interfere with the enzymes. You may have seen on here a recommendation to feed food with 4% or less fiber. However, that applies to kibble only. For wet foods, there is a calculation to do to find out the dry matter basis (as if all of the water was removed). All you need is the moisture % from the label and the fiber % from the label. I would be happy to do the calculation for you, or I can point you to directions to do it yourself.

Adding yogurt or kefir would be great. If they don't work, there are some commercial probiotics that have a wide variety of strains in them that a lot of our dogs respond to. Three of the ones that are recommended are Proviable, Visbiome, and Dr Mercola Complete. There's a fourth one that I can never remember. If you choose to use a probiotic, always start low (less than 1/2 the suggested dose) and work your way up. I would try a probiotic before asking for a 45 day course of the antibiotic Tylan (after 45 days, slowly wean off).

The symptoms of too much enzymes can be the same as too little...It's all about the poop!

As for the water amount, some people using wet food don't add any water at all, others add a little bit. You don't need to make it a soupy mess. As long as the enzymes are thoroughly mixed in, it should be fine.

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Patsy
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Posts: 264
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Patsy » 26 Oct 2022, 19:45

Re SId/Sibo I’ve not heard of testing for it.the bowel noises and gas is from fermenting food in the gut and needs specific antibiotics . Pre and Probiotics are good , but in these cases are best used after the prescription meds to restore and maintain normal gut health.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

korilee74
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: Louisiana
Pet name: Belle
My name: Korin OBrien

Re: Foul Gas

Post by korilee74 » 27 Oct 2022, 10:39

Thank you all again for the most helpful information!!!

I heard back from Darwin's and I was able to look up Tuckers Guaranteed Analysis and looks like Tuckers has 2% Fiber and Darwin's 1%

Tucker

65% Moisture
02% Crude Fiber
14% Crude Protein
10% Crude Fat
63 kcal/oz

Darwins

75% Moisture
01% Fiber
?? Protein
?? Fat
?? kcal/oz

(waiting for email reply)

Her poop is still formed but appears to be a little more yellowish Green than usual

korilee74
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: Louisiana
Pet name: Belle
My name: Korin OBrien

Re: Foul Gas

Post by korilee74 » 27 Oct 2022, 14:15

Darwin's Turkey Natural Selections Breakdown: 45% meat 23% vegetable 20% organ 10% bone 2% vitamin/mineral mix

Cal/Oz = 31

Nutrients per 8oz Serving:

Calories: 248
Protein 14%
Fat $6%
Fiber 1%
Moisture 75%
Carbs 2%
Calcium 4.19g
Phosphorus 3.09g

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Jane&Clyde » 27 Oct 2022, 15:21

I'm glad to hear that the stools are still firm.

SID can flare up with no apparent reason at all. However, sometimes the flare can be caused by a change. That's why I have been looking at the diet and it's preparation method to see if something about it could be the culprit. The problem is most likely not simply that the food is raw. In fact, many EPI dogs do better on a raw diet.

The Tuckers food has an approximate fiber amount of 5.7% in comparison to kibble. That is too high for a lot of dogs with EPI. The Darwins is 4%. Could the gas have started when you switched to the Tucker's? It might help to keep a journal of what is fed and meds/supplements/enzymes along with the resulting poop/gas. Any idea when the Darwins food is going to arrive? If it's going to be there soon and the SID symptoms remain relatively mild, you might want to try just feeding the Darwins for a few days to see if the gas improves. A food change will probably not get rid of all of the SID symptoms, but being on a diet with a lower amount of fiber might help other treatments (probiotic, Tylan) work more easily.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Foul Gas

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 Oct 2022, 20:41

Hi Kori---

Jane & Patsy seem to have you covered pretty well. I must admit, I haven't read every word on your thread.

You may definitely add less liquid. You just want the enzymes to dissolve, so that they don't get stuck under the gums & cause irritation, and so that you're sure they eat them all. The fiber content is fine. Olesia has told me that adding pumpkin to Tucker's (my dog's name)meal, to keep him from scooting, is fine. Pumpkin has a lot of fiber. Good fiber. Each dog is different, so you may just need to do some trial and error.

Definitely sounds like SID., but did you switch the food gradually or suddenly? My understanding for SID is, to start with slippery elm, and if after a couple of days it hasn't cleared up, then you need to add a small amount of probiotic. Then, you may need to add Tylan, an antibiotic. Sorry if this is redundant. --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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