Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Pialovesyoga
Member
Posts: 50
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Bali
My name: Pia

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Pialovesyoga » 17 Nov 2022, 19:49

Yes, dehydration. I went back to vet this afternoon and they gave 1/2 IV for dehydration.
Grayish and formed at the beginning, more yellow and runny stool this afternoon, but I think that’s the double breakfast he had without enzymes or probiotics this morning. I suspect tomorrow morning will be better as I am back to turkey pumpkin, enzymes and probiotics for the rest of the day until he starts fasting this evening.
I notice more reflux this afternoon, but he is also drinking lot’s of water.

Chance
Member
Posts: 149
Country: Canada
Pet name: Chance
My name: Andrea

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Chance » 17 Nov 2022, 21:07

Oh you went back to the turkey food

The white/gray does sound like EPI.

Acid reflux...what dose of enzymes?

Pialovesyoga
Member
Posts: 50
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Bali
My name: Pia

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Pialovesyoga » 18 Nov 2022, 10:04

Yes cooked 99% lean turkey breast + pumpkin= museum quality poop this morning. 🧿 one and done. He went out only once even though he ate 2lbs turkey (divided by 4 meals)

I was giving 1 teaspoon enzymes for 1 cup of food. (This seemed to a bit much).
Yesterday afternoon I gave him 1/2 teaspoon enzymes with 1/2 lbs turkey and a generous spoon of pumpkins probiotics and Slippery Elm.

We are off to the vet again for the TLI test. He’s been fasting since last night.

Chance
Member
Posts: 149
Country: Canada
Pet name: Chance
My name: Andrea

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Chance » 18 Nov 2022, 13:50

Google he's better!

Yeah, with that strength of enzymes, 1 tsp is a LOT. My dog (with zero pancreas function) definitely would be sick with that. It would make most sick.

Good luck with testing! It should be fine. He won't notice it 😁

Maybe get them to give a B12 injection while there

Pialovesyoga
Member
Posts: 50
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Bali
My name: Pia

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Pialovesyoga » 18 Nov 2022, 14:40

I think they are sick of seeing us at the clinic at this point. :) The sample is drawn and sent to the lab. I gave him the first dose 1ml B12 when we got back home.

1ml B12/ per week for 6 weeks, then 1ml every other week for a month, then once a month, correct?

Another poop question as I’m so confused:
First poop in the morning was real good. But then after breakfast he had to go out for the second. The first half of the 2nd poop was good, same as the 1st, but the other half turned to lighter color (mustard) and slightly softer. I see this often. What does it mean?

Chance
Member
Posts: 149
Country: Canada
Pet name: Chance
My name: Andrea

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Chance » 18 Nov 2022, 15:18

Good it's over!

B12 is often as you said. But some dogs do seem to need more than 1 a month. 1 find every other week works best. (Definitely 1 a week to start. For 6 weeks). See where the numbers were today and decide then.

Poop.. it's too early to say at this time! His digestive system is still learning how to work with enzymes. It takes about 3 weeks for the system to figure out the new normal...life with enzymes!

Also it's only a couple of days ago he went almost a full day without enzymes. He's still gotta work some of that out.

Watch and see closely. If he starts having to go with extreme urgency, it might be SIBO, which is very common with newly diagnosed IBD or EPI dogs.

Pialovesyoga
Member
Posts: 50
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Bali
My name: Pia

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Pialovesyoga » 19 Nov 2022, 20:38

No urgency for poo poo, thank heavens. he went out only once late morning today - same story, harder and well formed at the beginning, softer and orange (pumpkin) towards the end.
I decreased the enzymes 1/4 ts instead of 1. Lot less reflux as well.

But, he’s been peeing like a horse now :) Larger amounts and quite often. I am guessing it’s related to enzymes. Luckily he hasn’t had an accident yet.

He is still wining a lot for food.

To be honest I’m so wiped out after this past week’s emotional, mental, and physical burden. I got upset this morning after he quickly gulped in something he found in the street (from the remaining it looked like a little piece of Taco bell meat with all the red seasoning/ hot sauce whatever on it). I was afraid we were gonna go back to diarrhea, but so far so good...

Also I know that I cannot feed him bland diet (lean ground turkey+ sweet potatoes or pumpkin) forever. I fed him chicken and rice —old bland diet (also occasional salmon and sardines in water) for a long while when he was having chronic diarrhea and now he cannot have chicken, rice, salmon or chicken based prescription kibbles anymore. He developed some sort of allergies for that I believe. I need to sort out a few homemade recipes to rotate seasonally. And a novel protein diet to give his system some rest after we jump over this current hurdle.

Chance
Member
Posts: 149
Country: Canada
Pet name: Chance
My name: Andrea

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Chance » 19 Nov 2022, 22:29

Overall sounds very positive! Good for solid poop...or mostly at least!

The drinking/peeing more is not uncommon when first starting enzymes. TBH, I am not sure why it happens, but it does! My guess...and that's all it is...the digestive tract for so long has only known life without digestive enzymes. It did the best it could. But nutrients not absorbed, the kidneys were working differently. Not much food for them to deal with. Now there's digestive enzymes, and the body has to relearn everything. Now there's actually food the kidneys need to process. Perhaps at this stage, they are inefficient? After a few weeks, I started to notice less drinking/peeing. It took a few weeks before I started seeing "medium brown" color poop.

I started with Pantenex, which immediately gave solid poop. But it was yellow or orange. After a few weeks it just suddenly went to medium brown. No dose change. No food change. It just happened. I did for a couple of days see some dark brown poop, but that was short lived. After trying enzyme Diane, the poop very quickly got darker. Not sure why! Now on Creon, it's still dark. Maybe a little darker!

You are right that the diet Bali is on isn't going to cut it long term. But it's good for a week or so, while getting settled.

When you say he can't tolerate chicken, rice or sardines... do you know for sure he can't at all? Perhaps it was the body reacting to the food, in life without enzymes? Not long before the EPI diagnosis, Chance could no longer tolerate chicken, salmon or herring (In raw form). Chicken caused ear infections. Salmon caused horrible skin issues that we'd thought was ringworm. Herring caused vomiting and diarrhea. (For a few months I had to do an elimination diet. Started off with one protein only. Following week I added another, etc..until the problem was seen again). We already had a full battery of tests and knew he did not have IBD.

A month or so after he was on enzymes and doing well, I started trying out some of the meats he couldn't tolerate - very slowly, one at a time. He's fine. I think somehow it was how his body tried to eliminate the fats it wasn't digesting. I was (and still am) feeding a homemade raw. So it was easy to add one thing at a time. I have a pretty good raw food supplier!

As for being worn out, oh boy do I get it! It's like you're running on adrenaline for a week. When you start to get a glimmer of hope, the adrenaline crashes! Then it takes a whole lot of energy just to go use the washroom!! All you want to do is SLEEP!! They are our babies!

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1210
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 20 Nov 2022, 10:35

Hi Pia, and welcome to you and your puppy. You will get lots of help from this forum.

I am sorry I didn't see your thread when you first posted; having some family issues.

I, too, learned much from Dr. Becker's video. She is amazing. That was 3 1/2 years ago, and since that time the forum has helped Tucker go from 60 to 95 pounds!

I apologize, I do not have time to read everything. It sounds like you have had the blood test for EPI? Did your vet tell you to fast your beautiful boy for 12 hours prior to blood being drawn?

And, the test for B12 is valid only if you have not given supplements for I think 10 days, maybe 14.

Having enzymes in his system will not affect the TLI test, though. I am going to post a little information, in case it has not been included yet. Again, I am sorry if this is redundant.

It took me 6 months to get Tucker correctly diagnosed, in part because our wonderful vet had never seen a case of EPI.

This has been copied & pasted. I tried to make corrections to what I wrote originally to an owner whose dog was female:

"I have been involved with the forum for 3 1/2 years, and in that time my Tucker has gone from a 60 pound weakling, to a robust 95 pounder. I feed him mainly https://www.amazon.sg/Elite-Herding-Buf ... B07QD2QVM3 , but I have also fed him https://smile.amazon.com/Taste-Wild-Pac ... 483&sr=8-6. Both are popular forum choices for EPI dogs. (edit---Tucker doesn't like Pacific Stream, and he did well on Herding Dogs, but I can no longer afford it. He now eats Taste of the Wild High Prairie recipe, Amazon).

There are four cornerstones to treatment:

ENZYMES Many of us use https://enzymediane.com/ 6X. 1 teaspoon enzymes/1 cup kibble, add room temp liquid & let sit 20-30 minutes. EVERYTHING he eats has to have enzymes with it. Treats may have to go, for awhile.

DIET Grain free & less than 4% fiber. Some, but not all, EPI dogs do poorly when they are fed poultry. Feed 150% the amount you would feed at isr IDEAL weight, divided into 3, or preferably, 4 meals.

B12 Needs to be above normal, 600+. Tucker's score was 666, but I supplement him anyway. They just tinkle it out if they get too much. https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php ... gSEALw_wcB

SID All EPI dogs have it. May be controlled with slippery elm, slippery elm + probiotics, and/or Tylan antibiotic. Good info on this tab https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/

Keep a journal, and once you gather all your goodies, make only one change at a time. We have all had to tweak our routine, because each dog is different.

Feel free to ask as many questions as you have, and stay on the same thread here. You may want to share the forum with your vet, too. You've come to the right place, where you and your puppy will get lots of help!"

edit---If you have done the blood test, please share all the results with the forum

Take Care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 4 cups/day.

PLEASE forgive if I'm replying too late, with information you have already been given.
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 4 cups/day, with a couple tablespoons of Fresh Pet mixed in, because everybody else gets some. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 95!!! pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Chance
Member
Posts: 149
Country: Canada
Pet name: Chance
My name: Andrea

Re: Bali’s story: We need healing vibes and support

Post by Chance » 20 Nov 2022, 13:34

Pam, how much slippery elm to maintain SIBO? How often?

I always have the 400mg capsules on hand; but only ever gave it as needed for rare problems. When he's gotten into something, usually gave 2 capsules to help prevent or help issues. On very rare occasion, I've given 2 doses...which makes poop softer than I like.

But as a maintenance, would take less at a time?

I give Proviable DC at lunch. Slippery elm I would give between meals to prevent it from reducing nutrient absorption.

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