Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Lulu
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Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 14 Jan 2023, 20:39

Hi Everyone!

I've been pouring over this site for the last week and an so amazed by this resource and community. I recently brought home a sweet, 1 1/2-year-old foster from an awesome German Shepard rescue and while I was not familiar with EP, I'm always eager to learn. On top of the EPI, Hoppy is recovering from giardia and was showing what I now know are typical symptoms of EPI- very low weight, fearfulness, rumbling tummy noises, horribly smelly poop, relieving herself in the house 4x-5x a day and trying to eat her poop. Poor, sweet girl.

The original instructions for this pup were to feed her 2x a day as follows: 3 "scoops" of enzymes, along with 3 tsp of fiber, mixed with water and 2 cups of grain-free kibble (set for 20min). She also takes Flagyl (500mg) 2x a day. I've been following these instructions and while she has been eating all of her food, she's been very reluctant. She does seem to have put on a little weight over the last week and her energy level/fearfulness has improved a bit.

HOWEVER, I recently realized that 3 "scoops" is actually 9 tsps, and after reading through this site, that seems like a lot! It works out to 4 1/2 tsp per cup! Her food is so sticky and stinky (I hate making it), and I wonder if this is why she is so hesitant to eat. Has anyone else had to give their dog this much?

I spoke to the rescue and they said it would be fine to lower the enzymes (they had upped them during her bout of giardia). I've started giving her 1.5 tsp and she eats more readily... The problem is her poop was just starting to firm up and now it's very soft again.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how much of the enzyme should I be giving her now? Do I need to slowly lower the amount?
Also- how long can I leave her food out? I've started feeding her 4x a day because she wasn't eating everything at once, but I still find that sometimes it sits out for awhile before she eats it. I'd love to be able to feed her just 2x a day.

Additional info: I don't know if they checked her b12 (I will ask) and I haven't tried giving any of the supplements that I've read in the forum- slippery elm, etc. I randomly picked out her food before I found this site. It's Fromm Four Star Grain Free Lamb and Lentil (Crude Protein 25.0% Minimum; Crude Fat 14.0% Minimum; Crude Fiber 5.0%). Seems like I need to switch to a food with lower fiber, but I'm nervous to change her food while figuring out her poop situation. I'm also curious what people recommend. I've also started using the log from the forum.

Thanks in advance for any tips and for all of the incredible info I've already been able to read about on this forum.

-Lulu & Hoppy
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

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jilbert57
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by jilbert57 » 14 Jan 2023, 21:31

Hi Lulu and welcome to you and Hoppy.
Can you post what enzymes you are currently using? That would help with the dosing. It is usually 1 teaspoon enzyme per 1cup kibble. Add a little room temperature water stir and let set 20 minutes. Stir and serve.
There are 4 cornerstones to Epi:
1. Enzymes must be used with all food. Plant enzymes are not strong enough.
2. Diet- grain free food with 4% fiber or less. Please stay away from legumes, peas lentils.
3. Antibiotic for SID(small intestinal dysbiosis)Tylan is the antibiotic of choice but you can also try a pre/probiotic first.
4. B12 All Epi dogs need to have their B12 in the high range, normal will not suffice.

When all these are met usually the pup starts to get better.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Lulu
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 14 Jan 2023, 23:38

Thanks, Jill. The enzymes are EnzymeDiane 8x, which is why 4.5 tsp per cup seemed like a lot. The rescue agreed to lowering her dose, so 2 days ago I switched to 1.5 tsp (mixed with warm water, coating every bit of food, incubated for 20min) but my concern is that her poop seems to be getting softer again.

Since it was just 2 days ago, it could be that we just haven't found the right mix (could it be the extra fiber that she's on? Or that I'm giving her the wrong food?) or that the giardia is still clearing up?

In any case, my big question is has anyone given as much as 4.5 tsp of 8x per cup of kibble? And is it ok to just jump down 1.5tsp?
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

Lulu
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 14 Jan 2023, 23:38

Thanks, Jill. The enzymes are EnzymeDiane 8x, which is why 4.5 tsp per cup seemed like a lot. The rescue agreed to lowering her dose, so 2 days ago I switched to 1.5 tsp (mixed with warm water, coating every bit of food, incubated for 20min) but my concern is that her poop seems to be getting softer again.

Since it was just 2 days ago, it could be that we just haven't found the right mix (could it be the extra fiber that she's on? Or that I'm giving her the wrong food?) or that the giardia is still clearing up?

In any case, my big question is has anyone given as much as 4.5 tsp of 8x per cup of kibble? And is it ok to just jump down 1.5tsp?
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by jilbert57 » 15 Jan 2023, 09:31

Yes it is ok to jump down to a lower dose. I am not sure if the shelter was doing a dose by weight or what but you dose enzymes by the amount of food.
If you are using 8x I believe the dose is 3/4 teaspoon of enzyme per 1 cup of kibble
If you are using a much higher dose you might begin to notice mouth sores or sore nose and also sloppy poops. Too much or too little enzyme can produce bad poops.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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My name: olesia

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Jan 2023, 12:03

i agree with Jill, lowering the dosage is fine .. as too much could cause mouth sores etc.....

REgarding the sloppy stools returning, yes, it could be the all of a sudden drastic reduction in the enzymes.... HOWEVER.... it is possible that the reason why such a high dose of enzymes appeared to work with the poo (but very understandable why Hoppy was not so keen about eating everything- -too much enzymes/possible mouth sores) is very likely due to the food.

The fact that it is lentil base is not a good thing for an EPI dog.... legumes/lentils are the worse veg/carb that you can give an EPI dog because it actually encourages SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which displays just like EPI with the sloppy stools. ALSO, even if the food ingredients were magically perfect for an EPI case... quite honestly whenever we learn of someone feeding a food of 5% fiber content, there almost always is a problem. My personal opinion is that 5% fiber content is just too much carb content for our dogs in general. I'd look at commercial foods that have a much lower fiber content, even if it does include a pea/legume/lentil ingredient... as long as it is only once and also 4th or 5th down the ingredient list so as not too much in the composition. Check out commercial dog foods on CHewy. You can put in a bunch of criteria like grain-free and pea free and see what bubbles up.

Hope this helps a little. It sounds like you are really trying to do a good job maintaining your dog's EPI... in the beginning it takes all of us a lot of trial and error and a lot of it is because all of our dogs have messed up gut flora's from the EPI, but they also all have "unique" gut flora compositions.... so it can be a lot of trial and error to find the right balance of the recommended protocol and it can be especially challenging to find a food that best agrees with your individual dog. The fact that you will now be keeping an EPI log is wonderful. That will really help you figure out what works best for your dog.

In the meantime, please continue to chat with us and we will try and help guide you as best we can.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Jean » 16 Jan 2023, 05:12

Good Morning from Liverpool UK

1 teaspoon per cup of kibble is the recommendation, if you are worried ring Diane at Enzyme Diane, very approachable

as to food, well most do better on grain free, and a lot of our dogs seem to not tolerate chicken in dog food , try to avoid peas too, these are all fillers , and seem to have no value as far as food is concerned

My Kara had projectile poo at the start , so I empathise on the accidents in the house

Try to get Tylan and give twice daily morning and night and it is weight of dog dosed

https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

for 45 days

and what about b12 are you supplementing this ?

can I say thank you for adopting I have just taken in an 8 yr old street dog from Bulgaria, he is getting there

one more thing, well two,

keep a diary on everything you do

and change only one thing at a time, the enzyme doseage is definitely number 1

Jxxxx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Barb
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Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Barb » 16 Jan 2023, 14:34

A warm welcome to you and Hoppy! In our experience with Kolby, (who has since passed on due to cancer), too much enzymes gave the same results as too little......very loose stools. Our vet had not had a lot of experience with EPI, so he encouraged us to give extra enzymes to "jump start" Kolby's recovery.........whoops! Not a good idea. Very loose stools. Luckily, I had just discovered this Forum and got better advice.

We also used Diane's 8X and she recommended 3/4 teaspoon of enzymes per cup of food. It worked beautifully for almost 11 years until Kolby developed a sudden and aggressive form of cancer 3 years ago. So yes, I would cut back on the enzymes and follow Diane's dose advice--3/4 teaspoon per cup of food--and go from there. Do you know what Hoppy's B12 results were? Getting the food, enzymes, B12, and antibiotics balanced is tricky at first, but will become very easy once you get it straightened out.

Barb

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Jean » 17 Jan 2023, 05:47

thanks for the info on Dianes 8x enzymes
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Lulu
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Foster
My name: Lulu

Re: Hoppy the EPI Foster Dog

Post by Lulu » 19 Jan 2023, 10:37

Thank you so much Jill, Jean, Barb and Olesia for the awesome info. It's been 2 steps forward, 2 steps back and it's really great to have this support. I understand why this forum is so dedicated! She is the sweetest dog and it's hard to not get everything figured out faster. These EPI dogs really are special (in the best way).

I lowered her enzymes to 3/4 tsp per cup (Diane's 8x) and then switched her food to Nulo Grain free Turkey- 3.5% fiber, no lentilsi though it does have chickpeas and then later on Lima beans are listed. I'd like to switch to call of the wild someday, but I was out of dog food and this was the best option at the pet store :|

She's still on Metronidazole (flagyl)- and from the size of the bag, she is supposed to be for some time. And she still gets 1 1/2 tsp of fiber per cup of food. I'm not sure why, but it's what the Vet at the rescue said to do.

I have been logging her food/stool, but still just on paper until I can get the hang of the tracker. She's been on the new food for several days now, and her poop was worse and then better and now... liquid. I wanted to cry.

The good news is her energy is staying up and she looks like she's slowly gaining weight.

I'm going to keep the same routine for a few more days. The vet suggested adding rice to her food but I'm nervous to add so many carbs- feels counterintuitive? But again, I'm just learning.

Still waiting on B12 answers, but any thoughts or encouragement would be great! Thank you again! Really want this sweet girl feeling as good as possible!
Harper is a gorgeous and sweet, 1 1/2-year-old sable GSD. She was so close to losing her life when she was saved by a German Shepard rescue and tested for EPI. She's slowly gaining weight but is still on the time consuming journey of figuring out what works for her. Grateful every day for this forum.

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