3.5 months in, 12.5% weight loss, questions.

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Kate
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Emma
My name: Kate

3.5 months in, 12.5% weight loss, questions.

Post by Kate » 27 Mar 2023, 15:05

Hi, my name is Kate and I have Emma who is 5. She is a normally 40 pound Queensland x Australian Shepard cross. She is now 34.7 pounds.

Her diet now is Purina pro plan canned grain free. 1 can, 3x daily. She was on one of the grain free kibbles back in 2019 and was by chance diagnose with dilated cardiomyopathy. At that point I transitioned to a raw diet. She did great on that. My other dog had a liver issue and vet recommended a cooked diet, so I switched to cooked. Then, this past year I needed to be away for a week at a time and probably switched too quickly to a Purina kibble diet. 😢

Last December I was gone three nights and came home to Emma with a very loose stool and very gurgly stomach sounds. The vet recommended rice and chicken breast, which I had already started. It really didn't help. We did this several times for at least a week each go, then tried to get her back on some kibble.
The vet then put her on metronidazole for a week. That seemed to help for a week or so, then back to loose stool. Her poops have been 5 and 4 scores. After the antibiotic she went to 3's. Sometimes it will be a 3 in the morning and a 4 or 5 in the evening. This has been going on since December.

Of course at this point I am a mess, seems like nothing is working and the vet just doesn't seem worried enough for me. I am going to another vet this weekend for another opinion. Emma has a good attitude and has energy but continues to lose weight. I got Insight of epi from an AKC article, then found you, thankfully.

Last week I put her on a plant based enzyme with food and it did seem to help but it read your information and bought Pan-tenex and gave her a dose, 1/2 tsp. In her can of food, she almost immediately got gurgly again and so I went back to just canned food with the other enzyme. I am trying again because I figured that there may be a transition period.

I have an appointment in 5 days, and am asking for a TLI blood test and cobalamin test. I am assuming it will be positive. I'm also trying to stay positive. I could really use some help on the diet part. I also have some Purina kibble, digestive health, grain free salmon and rice. I'd like to try to keep with a diet that the pet sitter can easily stick with when I leave for a week or so.

Why do you think she is having this response to the enzyme? Could I be feeding too little enzyme? Should I continue for now or do you have a suggestion? I read that you can put the enzyme into a capsule and feed with the food without any wait time, is that acceptable? Is any probiotic good or are there some prefered brands?

All help is appreciated. This really is a tough ride. Thank you.
Kate and Emma and Cricket (15 ys)

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: 3.5 months in, 12.5% weight loss, questions.

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Mar 2023, 17:03

Hi Kate, Emma and Crickett too!

Thanks for contacting us. and a HUGE thank you to YOU for already scheduling a TLI test to confirm or not whether Emma has EPI. Be sure to "food" fast her 12 hours prior to the blood being drawn for the TLI test AND ask the vet to also draw enough blood for a Cobalamin (B12) blood test. It will cost more, but less than if you had to do both tests separately..... in the end, it is VERY important to always test the B12 too when dealing with a possible gastro issue.

You may have used too much Pantenex with the amount and type of food, but that usually is not a problem..... is her stomach still gurgling after you stopped giving the Pantenex? If so, then what you are hearing is most likely SID. (small intestinal dysbiois) which can happen with MANY gastro issues.

If the gurgling stopped after you stopped the Pantenex..... what could have happened... is (1) too much for her system (2) or very often, once enzymes are given, if this is EPI, all this time while EPI has gone untreated, SID has built up, once you give the enzymes, ... in non-scientific terms... it is almost like the enzymes are now doing the job of finally digesting the nutrients from the food and in turn is starting to shake loose all the accumulated bad metabolites from when the body was not properly digesting things................... (3) this is not SID and your dog simply does not need enzymes.

Personally, since Emma had an adverse reaction... for now (until you get the TLI test results back) i would stick with the other enzymes (i am assuming plant enzymes)..... just in case this is low B12, PLE or something other than EPI going on.

ALSO.... the weight loss... especially if this is EPI.... you will want to feed a LOT more.... like 150% of what Emma typically requires. BUT..... since you are feeding 3 meals already, you will need to feed smaller portions but more meals to compensate for the extra food.... so i would give 4 meals daily, smaller, with the other enzymes in every meal.

See how things go..
With regards to stuffing the enzymes in capsules... if this is EPI... not the best way to handle powdered enzymes....., BUT we will work with you on this... however, my suggestion instead would be to just give CREON (enteric coated pellets in a capsule that you open up, sprinkle on the food and serve immediately) if you want to have a dog sitter handle giving enzymes with ease.

IN the meantime.... jsut know that we are here and will help you work thru this . Be sure to share with your vet everything we suggest to you!

ALSO................Please STOP the metronidazole... instead insist that your vet give Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble antibiotic powder) instad of giving metro. Metro is bad to give dogs with chronic gastro issues... as Metro kills ALL the gut bacteria which is bad, because some of these bacterial strains will never ever come back no matter how many probiotics you give the dog. HOwever, with Tylan, Tylan will only inhibit the reproduction of more bacterial strains, so itis a much better antibiotic to give. Also.... Tylan is more geared towards addressing small intestinal issues vs. Metro...
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Kate
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Emma
My name: Kate

Re: 3.5 months in, 12.5% weight loss, questions.

Post by Kate » 27 Mar 2023, 19:07

Thank you for responding so quickly. I've had dogs for 40 years and grew up with them and I feel so terribly incapable right now.

I will stop the pan-tenex. Put her back on the Well and Good enzyme with probiotics. I'm only able to feed 3 times a day unless i figure out a way to take her to work with me. Normally she should only eat one can twice a day. So I upped that to the one can 3x daily.

As for metronidazole, I am not giving now. I did about 3 weeks ago for 7 days.

Should I also be giving another prebiotiic and probiotic?

Kate and Emma

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: 3.5 months in, 12.5% weight loss, questions.

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Mar 2023, 13:30

yes, Prebiotic and probiotics are good to add.... BUT.... that being said... do not do just yet. Strip things down and give it a few days, see if this helps or not.... THEN you can add one thing at a time....if when you want to try adding pre/probiotics..... start with simple "SLippery ELm powder" which has mucilage (soothing properties) and also has SCFA "Butyrate" in it that works as a prebiotic..... you can get it from AMazon.com, make sure you get the powder so that you can control the dosage... as prebiotics are wonderful BUT not enough does nothing and too much can trigger more loose stools.... start with our dosage recommendation:
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
You can also order SLippery ELm powder from Wonderlabs (listed on the above page).

THen if the slippery elm doesn't help at all after 3 days.... (it works pretty quickly!) stop it and just try a different brand of probiotics. SOme of the ones we suggest (although there are no guarantees) are:
Visbiome (vet)
Proviable (vet)
Mercola Complete Probiotics (OTC)
VetriScience Mega Probiotics (OTC)

We jsut never know which probiotic will work since it depends on the individual dogs' gut flora composition... so all you can do is try..............one at a time!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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