A few days in

[CocoLab]

Has anyone had experience with Ultamino by Royal Canin?

Trying the enzymes as well as the Ultamino and have not been able to stabilize her yet. Ex: Raw patties twice a day with enzymes and Ultamino at night feeding. She's had a couple good poops but nothing stable. Today she is drinking an enorment amount of water--thoughts??

[Olesia711]

We suggest Ultamino if a dog is struggling with EPI + IBD (or food sensitivities)... however..... although Ultamino appears to work better on most EPI dogs... it doesn't always work out well. If your dog is struggling with IBD or food sensitivities.... you may have to try other true hydrolyzed foods.

Is your dog confirmed with EPI, what are the TLI test results and was she recently diagnosed and started on enzymes?
If recent, this would explain the excessive thirst. Many EPI dogs when first started on the enzymes drink a ton of water, but then it should subside within a few weeks.... if not THEN have your vet check her over for possible UTI or diabetes.

Has your vet confirmed that your dog has IBD or a food sensitivity

Can you explain to us, what enzymes you are using and how much are you giving per how much food and how are you preparing the food with the enzymes.

Also... is your dog on B12?
Has your dog been treated for SID (dysbiosis), tried prebiotics/probiotics? tried antibiotics.. if so what kind.

SOmetimes is the little things that can cause an EPI dog not to optimally respond.

If you can give us more information, we might be able to better help you.

[glintpetite]

Notice that Ultamino primarily uses hydrolyzed animal protein as the protein sourcespacebar clicker

[Olesia711]

this is why we recommend it for those struggling with food sensitivities.... as the protein is hydrolyzed which in turn helps the body to NOT recognize it and cause the body to have an adverse reaction.

[CocoLab]

In addition to drinking an enorment amount of water, she had sleep tremors, 4 episodes of diarrhea, and irregular breathing on the PancreaPlus enzymes. I mixed the powder well with thawed but raw frozen "Fish and produce" by "OCRaw" diet. And yes, she is taking the Cobaliquin for B12 deficiency. The vet said two teaspoons of enzymes per meal and wait 10 minutes. So I did.

But for the above reasons, I stopped the enzyme treatment. I think I would rather clean up diarrhea than watch her suffer. She has not lost so much weight that she is in trouble..(yet)

Today I gave her just the OCRaw fish&Produce patties and she had a better day. She had half the diarrhea episodes and one formed stool with some liquid.

The vet is treating her for EPI and wants her blood tested in another month. Her TLI was low and that's what triggered the enzymes treatment. I read the lab report and it was the testing lab that pointed toward possible EPI.

I realize there are other hydro brands, but she is a chocolate lab river dog, I can't see her living on synthetic food such as ultimo for the rest of her life. Her blood work showed allergies to grains so I am looking for the best food suggestions for her.

Any Raw suggestions? Any dry kibble suggestions that are not Hydro but are grain free? There are so many available I'm not sure which one to try.

Has anyone tried meat or poutry on top of the Ultimino?

Many thanks for your thoughts.

[Olesia711]

Again, I am so sorry that your dog is struggling so much...

1. can you please share with us the actual TLI test result?

2. Also... exactly how much food (volume -wise) of these raw thawed "frozen fish & produce" were you giving with 2 level tsps of enzymes?

Next my understanding with these "hydrolyzed" foods is that using them is a temporary situation until you can figure out what the offending 'protein" might be.

The purpose of hydrolyzed food is to mask an offending protein like chicken, beef, pork, etc. etc.

Since your dog had such a violent reaction when given the enzymes.... a couple of possibilities come to mind
1. way too much enzymes were given with the meal... or...
2, you dog might have a pork allergy.... in which case, if she is segueing or is an EPI dog.... we know how to work around a pork allergy and will help you with this.... once we have more information and your vet DOES think this is indeed EPI.

Regarding other foods, grain free, not hydrolyzed... YES!!!! my current favorite is:
Castor & Pollux PRISTINE beef and sweet potato (you can buy it also at PetsMart)
https://www.amazon.com/Castor-Pollux-Pr ... MCWB9?th=1

start with the smallest bag possible and see if it agrees OR if "beef" might be one of the sensitivities

Regarding adding real meat to the Ultamino.... that kind of defeats the purpose UNLESS.... you try adding just 1 type of meat (protein) at a time to assess (over the course of a few days/week ) if that particular protein improved or degraded the quality of the poo.... and you plan on keeping notes about your observation..... and then plan on testing, one at a time, other proteins.

If you do decide to "test" proteins, only stick with the common ones, such as beef, chicken, turkey, pork.... don't try the unusual proteins such as rabbit, ostrich, alligator, etc.... just in case this is a bad case of IBD, what you don't want to do is expose her to possible other proteins and create a sensitivity now that you may have to resort to in the future.

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Hi KW & welcome to you & Kah'la. This part, the beginning, is the hardest part.

Sport Dog Elite/Herding Dogs formula, is a good kibble used by many EPI owners, with good results. I bought it directly from the company, but you may be able to find it on Amazon or Chewy.

Taste of the Wild, Pacific Stream or High Prairie, is another option.

With kibble, you use 1 teaspoon enzymes, per 1 cup of kibble, add room temperature liquid, and let it sit for ***20*** minutes before you serve it.

You will need to address her SID, too, because all EPI dogs have it.

I see Olesia asked for test results...I don't know whether or not you've had a chance to share them, but Olesia will be able to read a lot into them, so please do that.

Olesia is humble, but as the founder of this organization, she knows her stuff. I listen to everything she says.

KW, please ask a lot of questions, and you will get there. Keep a journal, try & make one change at a time so you can keep track of what works. I got my Tucker straightened out over four years ago, with help from this forum. You'll be fine. Take Care---Pam & Tucker

[CocoLab]

I have attached her results. Thank you for asking.

When she seemed to overdose on enzymes, I was giving her an 8 oz patty of the frozen food with 2 tspns of enzyme. That's what the prescription instructions said. When I started her off with less, it didn't work. That is the diarrhea didn't stop.

Before we go on, please take a look at everything they claim she is allergic to. This is all of a sudden. I have been feeding her dog food her whole life (as well as people food). She turns seven this month and things just fell apart for her (and us).

Here is what I am currently feeding her--I cup of Whole Foods ground chicken (w/ 1 percent of vinegar and rosemary extract-?okay?). I mixed this with torn up organic greens and 1 tblspn of brown rice. Her poo was soft but formed yesterday. So I reintroduced the Cobaloquin and probiotic and she had a very small afternoon liquid stool. So I stopped the probiotic and cobaloquin.

In the evening, I fed her the same chicken meal as the morning and the next day she had a soft but formed stool. No liquid. I consider this stable.

As for treats, I'm feeding her Whole Paws whitefish cat kibbles but I need to improve that too. Also, she is no longer showing signs of borborygmi-tummy gurgles.

I did see that Pristine is one of the best dry dog foods but look at her allergy sheet--she is 99 percent allergic to sweet potatoes--since when??.

She had a good morning with her dog friends so I'm going to go search out some treat options at Care A Lot. It's a huge store here in Virginia Beach. I do not recommend taking these dogs into the pet store. It's kind of torturous for them.

Thanks again for sharing and caring.

[Olesia711]

AHHHHHHhhhhhh... thank you so much for sharing these test results AND exactly what you were and are feeding/treating with.

1. First and foremost, might as well consider that your sweet dog most likely does have EPI with a TLI at 4.3. As of Sept they discovered an issue with the TLI assays and these are the new guidelines: https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/tli/

New cTLI interpretations:

0 to 2.5 µg/L Diagnostic for EPI
2.6 to 7.5 µg/L Subnormal cTLI concentration, highly suggestive of EPI. Assess response to pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy to confirm diagnosis.
7.6 to 10.0 µg/L Subnormal cTLI concentration, EPI cannot be excluded. If signs are consistent with EPI, consider assessing response to pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy to confirm diagnosis.
10.1 to 50.0 µg/L Result is within the reference interval.

2. Next, the 2 tsps of enzymes per 8 oz food (1 cup) is double the typical amount needed..... and this "may" have caused the adverse reaction.... some dogs are perfectly fine with taking this much enzymes, others not so much, and some jsut need a tiny amount to maintain..... so this "may" be a possibility why the lethargic, etc reaction... however see #3.

3. DO NOT use vinegar in any food treated with enzymes as vinegar destroys the enzymes....not sure how much vinegar is needed to destroy all the efficacy of the enzymes... but this is a big no-no.... so if giving enzymes, do not include any vinegar.

4. the B12 is very low and yes supplementation is needed... but reading your notes, very, VERY rarely is there a reaction to B12 (in humans some will get stomach cramps/loose stools) my suggestion is to try giving the B12 cobalaquin again... but DO NOT give probiotics. RE-try the cobalaquin, and if you get another loose stool reaction, email me privately (olesia.kennedy@gmail.com) with your mailing address and i will send you some methylcobalamin B12 to try instead of cyanocobalamin that the Cobalaquin is made of. I do not understand why, but for whatever reason some dogs respond much better to a methylcobalamin version of B12.

5. Probiotics can and do give some dogs loose stools... i would stop giving any probiotics for quite a while as this could be the trigger.

6. Looked at the allergy/sensitivities reports.... i think Allercept is a very good allergy testing company.... i had my other dog years ago tested by Allercept.... what "my" vet recommended was anything positive in the low hundreds, jsut ignore... however anything dramatically positive.... then consider it a definite allergy... for example.... my dog's test results came back with a small handful of food/grasses with under "200" sensitivity... however... when it came to storage mites... her score was almost 4,000 !!!! WHen my vet saw that he said, ignore everything else, but OMG, my poor dog had severe allergies to storage mites ....

However, my Allercept test was done 10-12 years ago.... their scoring values may have changed and their testing results may be more accurate... i am just sharing this with you to let you know that these 'allergies" may or may not be something to worry about. For now i would adhere to what these test results are and maybe later you "test" each item by itself (via homemade foods) and see if this test results holds true.

If this allergy test is correct.... tHe good thing is that none of the proteins register as an allergen, and IMHO this is why Ultamino does nothing.....all hydrolyzed foods mask protein offenders such as chicken, beef, pork, etc. etc. and that is not the problem your dog has.

7. Based on the allergy report, and lets assume it is correct.... i'd skip the Pristine food cuz yes it does have sweet potato in it.
For now,
(a) i'd stay with the chicken and greens you are feeding...try not giving any brown rice (for now) and see how the poo is after maybe 2 days.
(b) if all is well with just chicken and greens, with 8oz of this, try giving 1/2 level tsp of powdered enzymes... let sit 15-20 minutes and serve.
try this for a couple of days and see how it goes.... UNLESS once adding the enzymes you see another blast of loose stools/tummy... in
which case, stop immediately, let me know, and i will send you a different version of enzymes.
(C) if above is okay, THEN i would try adding back just the cobalaquin and let us know how things go.
(d) if all is well, then try adding back some brown rice and see how that goes...........

8. The other test results that was VERY telling for me was the low folate score of 6.3. Although i am listing this as the last item, it could be the main problem. This often indicates small proximal distal disease... or.... just the fact that Folate is desperately needed and may be why all the loose stools. Please call your vet and ask your vet to prescribe the right amount of Folate for your dog... and before doing anything else (like what i listed in #7) ... i would start giving Folate first and the after a few days i would try a,b,c,d listed in #7.

In case no one mentioned it yet.... best to start keeping an EPI log, because you will want to track these changes that you need to do 1 at a time... and record the results or lack there of............

I hope this gives you some direction to start with but PLEASE keep us posted. so many times these dogs don't do well UNTIL adjustments are made, the problem is we have no idea what adjustments needs to be made for what dog until we try things one at a time...............

"

[CocoLab]

Thank you. I have read all your notes and yes, I have been keeping a log.

The Cobalequin vitamin the vet prescribed is a multivitamin that includes 175 ug 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate. Plus she is now getting folate from the organic greens I am giving her.

Restarting the Cobalequin with tonight's feeding but Not the probiotic.

I'll let you know how things go in a couple days.

God's Blessings to you and yours.