Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Lucygal222
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Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Lucygal222 » 06 Nov 2023, 07:52

Lucy
Lucy
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Hello, my lovely 5 yo KCCS Lucy was diagnosed with EPI in August, she’s been on a 50/50 mix of Royal Canin Gastro dry food with Lilys Kitchen salmon or lamb dry food. I give her Panzym powder on her three daily meals with slippery elm and she has Cobalaplex B12 tablets every other day. She had a 4 week course of B12 injections after her diagnosis and she’s just had a blood test today to check her b12 levels.

She’s recovered well thankfully since her diagnosis, shes put on weight, her skin has cleared up and her fur is growing back nicely thankfully. She’s still hungry but not as bad as she was poor thing.

However in the last week or two she has started to smell really bad. I’ve seen the section on bad odor on the website but I’m not sure what to do. The vet recommeds trying Lypex but it’s very expensive and Lucy has hip displaysia so is on other meds and has physio/hydro which all adds up sadly.

I’m worried I’m giving her too much enzymes, should she have slippery elm on every meal?

I’m not a fan of Royal Canin nutritionwise but the vet says stick with what seems to work for her.

There is so much advice on the website and forums but any advice would be welcome please!

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jilbert57
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Nov 2023, 08:51

She is darling.
The starting point for powdered enzymes is 1 teaspoon enzyme per 1 cup dry kibble. Add a little room temp water and stir. Let sit 20 minutes then serve. All food, treats, etc must be enzymed, or given within minutes of having
enzymes.
How is the poop looking?
It could be the grains in the RC gastro don't agree with her. But if the poop is good then you probably don't need to change food.
Do you brush her teeth? Could it be she has a bad tooth or need her teeth cleaned?
You can rinse her mouth out after eating or wite with a wet cloth.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Lucygal222
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Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Lucy
My name: Siân

Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Lucygal222 » 06 Nov 2023, 09:15

Hi Jill,

Thanks so much for getting back to me and yes she’s a sweetie although she’s getting much naughtier the older she is getting 🤣

Her poos are generally ok, they are shaped and brown but the insides are yellow (the colour of her enzyme powder). I have never been sure exactly how much to give but I definitely give her less than a teaspoon to a cup of food. I have been incubating for 20 mins.

It’s a really good idea to wipe her mouth after she’s eaten thank you. She usually drinks after eating but wiping away excess moisture is great and I didn’t think of that.

I don’t brush her teeth as much as I should unfortunately as she hates it and the vet says her teeth are surprisingly good for a KCCS however I must get back into cleaning her teeth more often now thank you.

Any tips re slippery Elm? Should it be on every meal?

Barb
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Barb » 06 Nov 2023, 10:07

I'm afraid we don't have a lot of conclusive evidence on why some dogs smell when they start the enzymes and some don't. Our Kolby was on enzymes for almost 11 years and he never had an odor, and yet I have read so many posts that people have written where the smell was almost unbearable. It must have something to do with their make up. For most dogs, it does seem to lessen with time, however. I hope that is the case with your pup. And keep up the treatment of gums and teeth and rinsing of the mouth. She is a sweetheart.

Barb

Lucygal222
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Posts: 4
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Lucy
My name: Siân

Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Lucygal222 » 06 Nov 2023, 12:06

Hi Barb,

Thanks for your reply.

That’s really interesting re some dogs smelling and others not. To be fair Lucy was very flatulent for a while after she started her treatment so I guess it’s a certain bad smell replaced by another!!! 🤣🤦‍♀️

Yes I’ll definitely get on top of cleaning her teeth properly.

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Olesia711
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Nov 2023, 13:52

Hi Sian, and welcome to you and one very cute little Lucy to our EPI family !!

And especially thanks for your last post.... about the stinky gas :lol: .... you'd be amazed at some of the odd comments that gives us the most insight to something.

when a dog stinks.. the first thing to look at is oral issues.... but when an EPI dog stinks.... that's when we first look at the gut.. and especially since you mentioned lucy's "flatulance" , that flatulance is SID/SIBO (dysbiosis) and although we cannot get rid of it, we can try to control it. The fact that Lucy was doing a lot of stinky tooting means her SID was not in good control . Unfortunately, ALL dogs with EPI have SID.

SO..... that stench you smell is putrefaction. How to better manage it? there is a list of things to try, but in the end, you are trying to improve the gut flora and quite honestly, i have found that sometimes the final piece to the puzzle is finding the right food. Unfortunately, that is not as easy as it sounds... so here is the list, that you can try, without worrying about too many meds for little Lucy.

1. staying on the enzymes lucy is on is fine... just add more enzymes (1:1 ratio).... this could very well help.
2. what was her B12 level? and since you are changing to Cobalaquin... be sure to check in 3 months or more to make sure the Cobalaquin is sustaining her B12 levels to upper B12. Insufficient B12 can also contribute to the smell.
3. Most often a food change is what helps the most. BUT.... i "mostly" have to agree with your vet... our motto is if the food you have is working, no need to change. WIth EPi dogs, grain in their food can often interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between 0% to 50% and we have no idea which dog will be affected by how much.... this is why we initially suggest starting with a low fiber food- -and then try a food with grain. (however...because of the food you are using has grain in it...this is where increasing the enzymes might help to compensate for any food disparity) ....And... since the insides of the poo isn't really that great after all... this food may not be exactly the best choice for Lucy. SO....you might want to try (if all above fails) changing the food... but after trying the increase in enzymes first ... see if that helps before making any big food changes. We will help you with different food choices.
4. SOmetimes giving a prebiotic with a probiotic helps (as prebiotics do work... and sometimes / but not always probiotics work)
5. Ahh SLippery Elm.. this has prebiotic properties and yes if giving it, try giving with every meal. here is the dosing recommendations:
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/.
Some peopel give SLippery Elm forever, but most just give it when there is an issue and only give until the issue is under good control.

i hope something in this list helps and PLEASE feel free to ask any further questions you may have and we will do the best we can to help you.
ALSO.... please be sure to share with your vet everything we recommend/suggest. As the best treatment for Lucy is when everyone workd together to help her !
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Eddiespaghetti
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Eddiespaghetti » 06 Nov 2023, 15:12

You have gotten a lot of great advice here. I only want to tell you the story of when I tried to scale back the enzymes for Eddie. Once he was stabilized we started scaling back the amount of enzymes per meal. Everything was going pretty well until we got under 1/2tsp per meal. Immediately once we got there his poop starting turning yellow. We increased the enzymes and it went back to brown.
All of this to say, I would definitely try to increase the enzymes a little and see if you can get it all brown before trying more drastic changes. Once their tummy stuff is taken care of, the smell might disappear. It could be the SIDs causing bad breath which in turn causes their saliva to smell god awful.
That being said, slippery elm can cause some medicine to not get absorbed properly. I do not know if their other medication is oral or not. You can possibly talk to your vet about trying tylosin (tylan). If you think that is an issue.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Nov 2023, 17:41

Yeah, Tucker stinks. I'm talking about the dog, the skin, the body, not the gas. I've just gotten used to it, I guess. Yankee Candles, incense, orange spray, all help, but yeah, he stinks. I guess I love him more than he stinks, and that is how we make it.

Your pup is Cute!!! --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Diane's Enzymes 4 t/day, B12 1 capsule/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/day. Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 4 c/day. 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma Nov. 2023. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

Now there's Nina. 5 year old GSD. TLI 1.0 B12 323. We are still tweaking her routine, and getting lots of help from the forum. She is klutzy and goofy, and we love her dearly, too.

Lucygal222
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Country: United Kingdom - Wales
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My name: Siân

Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Lucygal222 » 06 Nov 2023, 17:59

Thank you Olesia, Jeremy and Pam.

Your help and experience is so, so appreciated. If it wasn’t for epi4dogs I wouldn’t have a clue really what was happening with Lucy and I don’t think she would be half as well as she is now as I pretty much came up with her treatment myself based on the websites advice.

So I’ll definitely stick to the food she’s on for now and up her enzymes then and see what happens. I’ll keep a close eye on the colour of her poop too. I’m so grateful for your help as I was going to lessen her enzymes rather than increase them as I was worried she was having too much of it.

I’ll find out the B12 results on Wednesday hopefully and I’ve already shared this fantastic website and information with my vet and will continue to do so. (I actually decided to swap vets as it took so long for her to get diagnosed in the first place and they had no clue how to treat EPI sadly.)

Lucy’s other medicine is taken orally before she eats (galliprant) so I’ll check with the vet if slippery elm might affect it. I’ll look into Tylan too.

I still love her of course regardless of the smell although I might invest in some scented candles 🤣 but I’m just so happy she’s getting better thankfully.

Thanks so much again everyone 🙌
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Eddiespaghetti
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Re: Bad smell-enzymes help! Getting the right balance?!

Post by Eddiespaghetti » 06 Nov 2023, 18:12

Just to further elaborate on the slippery elm. It's recommended to give slippery elm two hours before or after other oral medications. Which would be completely fine for non-epi dogs. Putting pills or medication in cheese or something isn't an option for some of us. I couldn't get a steady routine down and Eddie's medication (meningitis) is far too important to hope for the best.

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