Boson's Thread

[Syranope]

Hi All!

We recently adopted Boson, the sweetest Chocolate Lab ever, from the Humane Society. He was diagnosed with EPI by them in October. We've had him for six weeks. We're learning so much about EPI and so grateful for all your help and advice. We've been lurking on the forum for a bit and figured we'd start a thread at some point. I've got a (hopefully) pretty simple question for the forum so I figured now was the time! I know you guys like for us to give all his info in the first post in a thread and then just re-post on that thread with any additional questions that we have, so that's what I'm doing!

WEIGHT:
58lbs in November
Up to 68lbs in January BCS is still probably 3-4/9

LABS:
TLI: 2.7 in October, <1 in December
Cobalamin: 355
Folate 19.2

DIET:
Purina ProPlan EN Gastroenteric 3cups 2x/day
Purina ProPlan EN Gastroenteric wet food , 0.3 cans, 1x/day

ENZYME:
Originally was on Pancrease plus (1 tsp per cup of food), but soooo expensive, switched to Epizyme about three weeks ago
Epizyme 3.5 tsp 2x/day, incubate with food and room temp water for 20-40min

SUPPLEMENTS:
Cobalamin 1 tab/day (started early Jan)
Proviable Probiotics 1 tab/day (started late Dec)
Salmon Oil ~4 pumps a day (started late Dec)

When we got him six weeks ago, his poops were fairly loose (~5ish on the fecal scale), he had awful smelling farts, he was eating his poop occasionally, he had tons of belly gurgles, and he was bleeding from his mouth sores, presumably from the enzyme. He was also drooling horribly, which we think was due to mouth/throat irritation from the enzyme making it painful to swallow his spit. Once we got the drill down with the Pancrease Plus, he was gaining weight but still had some loose poops. Much better with the farts and belly rumblings and the mouth sores and drooling basically stopped once we started incubating the enzyme. Since switching to Epizyme, his weight gain has slowed but continues, his farts and belly rumblings have increased slightly, he is drooling a little bit more, but his poops have settled out really nicely at around 3 on the fecal score.


Phewf! So after all that, here is my easy question, followed by some other random thoughts that aren't even really questions.

We got a new bottle of Epizyme two days ago and started using that. Today, Boson has had some pretty cow pie poops, 6-7 on the fecal score. No blood in his stools. Before that, he's been pretty stable around 3 on the fecal score. He doesn't seem in distress and has a great appetite, as always. I'm thinking that this bottle of enzymes isn't as potent and I should increase the dose I give him slightly? Is that right?


As far as my musings, I will say that this has been very challenging for us, more than we thought it would be. We don't know what Boson liked to eat before or what he tolerated/didn't tolerate. We don't know what his normal weight was. We don't know what his normal poops looked like. We've never known him except as an EPI dog. For now, we still have some work left on getting him plumped up a little big. Once his weight seems to be real good and his stools are stable. we may make some changes to his food since we know different dogs do well with different things. We are really trying to stay on Epizyme because of the cost difference, but I do worry since his weight gain has tapered a bit that it's not going to work for him long term. We're also wondering if he is going to need to eat this much food to maintain his weight long term (he eats soooooooooo much. At least twice what we would expect to feed him). We've struggled with not being able to give him treats, especially since our other dog is VERY treat motivated, but we're waiting until he's more stabilized to try to introduce some treats. But he's such a good dog with such a good personality, and he's worth all of it.

This is a kind of overwhelming task. Our vet doesn't have a ton of experience with EPI dogs (she hasn't had one in a few years) and there isn't much useful info on the internet EXCEPT for this site. We are soooooo grateful for the help that you guys give and appreciate all of your time and dedication. Thank you in advance!

Boson and Carey and Cori

[Olesia711]

Welcome to our website and thanks for the details.... but most of all thanks for adopting a dog with EPI!!!!! Once you get the right balance of the recommended protocol... things should go a lot easier.

Based on what your wrote... my guess is that one or two things is causing the back slide. My first guess is the Epizyme enzymes.... on the bottle does it state 71,400 USP units of Lipase???? If not.... let me know what it does state, cause if not 71,400 USP unit, then i suspect this is the problem.

Next... if it is 71,400 USP units of Lipase... then be sure to give 1:1 ratio ... and if you think it is bothering his mouth either add a pinch more water to the food when you mix
the enzymes in...and/ or let the enzymes sit in the food a little longer...maybe 10 mire minute equally 30 minutes.

the other possible issue is that this food, which as grain in it is simply not agreeing with your dog's EPI condition.... many EPI dogs once on enzymes cannot handle food with grain in it cause grain can destroy the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between 0% to 50%. OUr problem is that we don't know which dog is affected and if affected by how much of a %. This is why we suggest going with grain free food in the beginning... and trying food with grain later. some options are on the top of this page: https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/
if you want to look at commercial kibble.

hopefully this helps

Both of what mentioned above can and will encourage SID (Small intestinal dysbiosis) that ALL dogs with EPI have... but since we don't know how to cure it, our goal is to keep it under good control....hence my suggestions at this point.....

[Syranope]

Thanks for the info, Olesia.

I checked and the epizyme is 71400 USP lipase. We’ve been using epizyme for a few weeks and it has been working pretty well, this is just a new bottle of the same enzymes.

We definitely aren’t wedded to his current food, it’s just what he came home with from the humane society. Our other dog is on a Taste of the Wild food that is on your list, so we’re going to start mixing that in with plans to transitioning him over to it. It would be awesome to have both our dogs on the same food.

Thanks again for the advice! I’m sure we’ll be back on this thread soon enough!

Boson, Carey, and Cori

[Eddiespaghetti]

My dog is on taste of the wild Appalachian valley and is doing pretty well on it. I get why vets want to go with the prescription food, but probably isn't needed. At least not until you try different ones.

You could try to increase the amount of enzymes by 1/4-1/2 additional teaspoons and see if it makes a difference. I am pretty sure it's just SIDs rearing it's ugly head.

The amount of food can vary. My dog seems to have to eat 50 percent more than recommended in order to keep weight. Putting on weight it's usually 200-300 percent of recommended. It might be because he is smaller, or maybe he is more active then the average dog. I am not sure, at this point though don't worry too much about them getting fat. You can always adjust later.
Otherwise, you are doing everything correctly and are well on your way to hopefully having a healthy doggo

[Olesia711]

When my Izzy was still with us.... i used to rotate various foods (before she developed Diabetes in addition to EPI) and she too ate taste of the WIld (the Prairie and the Wild Stream versions) and she did very well on them.

Also... regarding maintaining the weight of an EPI dog.... with my Izzy, and obviously Jeremy's who posted above, and many others, although maybe not every single EPI dog, but many of them seem to need more food than what you'd expect for their size to maintain a good steady weight.

i had 3 Spanish Water Dogs... 2 (1 male and 1 female) of them weighed almost 60 lbs, Izzy, my 3rd dog (female) weighed 35lbs and ate more than double what the other 2 dogs ate! They were all 2 years apart and Izzy was the middle "child". She wasn't fat but she was solid like a tank on the double amount of food !

[Syranope]

Hi everyone - it's been a while since I posted. We've made some of the changes you all suggested (mostly switching to a grain free food) with really good results for Boson! Thank you everyone!

I'm posting now because in the last two days, though, Boson has had a couple of really loose stools, basically totally liquid. He has occasionally had one bout of diarrhea here and there, but this has been a few over two days now and I think I saw some blood in this morning's stool. Not a lot but a little. Still eating fine and tons of energy. He did also have a normal BM in the mix here as well. It sounds like this may be our first experience with SID? Since it's Saturday we can't call our vet, but my plan was to start him on some Slippery Elm (we bought this a while ago but hadn't started it because his poops were doing so good). And then if that doesn't clear things up we'll call the vet and ask about Tylan?

I just wanted to make sure that sounded like an ok plan? I don't want to jump the gun on treating him with something if he doesn't need it but also don't want to let this get out of control. I've never seen SID before and I'm not positive this is it, but I think so? How long do we wait to see if he responds to the Slippery Elm before starting Tylan?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Boson and Carey and Cori

------

Here's Boson's data (new stuff since the last post is bolded)

WEIGHT:
58lbs in November
Up to 68lbs in January BCS is still probably 3-4/9
At a super healthy 73lbs in March! Stools have been BCS2, looking good!

LABS:
TLI: 2.7 in October, <1 in December
Cobalamin: 355 (since this result in December he's been on daily cobalmin for the last two months, we haven't rechecked his level)
Folate 19.2

DIET:
Was on Purina Proplan EN 3cups 2x/day
Now on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream, 2.25cups 2x/day

ENZYME:
Originally was on Pancrease plus (1 tsp per cup of food), but switched to Epizyme due to cost in January
Now on Epizyme 2.25tsp 2x/day (1tsp per 1cup food), incubate with food and room temp water for 10-20min

SUPPLEMENTS:
Cobalamin 1 tab/day (started early Jan)
Proviable Probiotics 1 tab/day (started late Dec)
Salmon Oil ~4 pumps a day (started late Dec)

[Olesia711]

Hi Carey,

Good to hear that overall Boson started doing well with the few suggested adjustments... however... sorry to hear that he is having a set back now.... it could be SID as you suspect, but a little blood with SID is not very common, although can happen.

SOOOOOO...... before assuming this is SID, i just would like some clarification.... is this a new bag of Taste of the WIld (TOTW) that you opened.... or has Boson been on this bag of food for a while ???

1. The reason why i am asking is because although in the past we have always found that TOTW often worked for many EPI dogs.... with some of the posts that have been recently popping up online with dogs getting sick from Purina Foods and other foods (TOTW was also one)..... i feel i need to ask, just in case these posts are accurate (i have no clue if these claims are real or not....) i always feel it is better to be safe than sorry.... so............if this is a new bag of food you started feeding... i would stop feeding from this bag of food immediately.

2. IF Boson has been eating from this same bag of food for a while with no issues.... then i would assume it is not this bag of food.

SOOOOOOOOOOOO......

If #1 , stop the food and just feed something bland for now until you can bring Boson to the vet.... maybe tried baked, skinned chicken breast and white mashed potato ... and do not feed too much either..... it won't hurt for him to be underfed or a few days..........until the vet can see him.

If #2. then YES, go ahead and give Slippery Elm (according to weight) see:
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
And hopefully the slippery elm will help cease the loose stools and bleeding.... if not, then yes, contact the vet MOnday, explain the situation and see if the vet will prescribe tylan. Even if this is Colitis.....(because of the blood) they usually will give Metro, but ask the vet if they can give you Tylan, a macrolide antibiotic instead.... it may take a little longer to fix, but will work and be much better for Boson to take a bacteriostatic antimicrobial that will only "inhibit bacterial growth, rather than killing everything with a Bactericidal like Metronidazole.........

[jilbert57]

Just wondering have you recently opened a new bag of food?
It could be SID, is the blood bright red or darker? The slippery elm would be fine to use. Are you hearing stomach rumblings, smelling gas or signs of acid reflux?

Jill

[Olesia711]

thanks Jill... i forgot to mention about the blood.....

... if the blood is bright red..... not to worry, SID or colitis, or whatever but fixable.
If dark red blood, tarry or black....bring to emergency vet ASAP.

[Syranope]

Thanks for the quick responses. Olesia, in answer to your question, he's just finishing up a bag of dog food that he's been working on for a while, so I don't think this is caused by a problem with the food itself.

Boson has continued to have loose stools, but hasn't had any blood in them and he's still acting totally normal. I'm not sure I really saw any blood earlier today, so I'm going to assume I was mistaken about that. We started Slippery Elm with his dinner tonight and will keep doing that with his meals. And we'll call his vet on Monday about the Tylosin.

Thanks again for all the help!

Boson and Carey and Cori