Question on intrinsic factor in EPI

[Tuckaboo Pam]

NOPE! No need to assume diabetes is in your future. Too many success stories among this forum. Nina is my second EPI dog, and there has been no diabetes in either her or Tucker.

Does Pro Plan have rice in it? Even though the fiber is nice & low, sometimes the presence of grain can interfere with the absorption of the enzymes, so maybe this is part of your puzzle. Does it by any chance have light colored pieces in it, that could affect the color of her poop?

When I got Nina she was eating Purina True Instincts, so I kept her on it for a while. It's so much easier, with multiple dogs, to have them all eat the same thing, and my other two bigs loved it. BUT Nina's poo was too soft, and I switched her to grain free. I still had to tweak things, but her poop did improve with the switch.

Something I always like to read is the signature at the bottom of a post. This is where you write a summary of your dog's history, test results, and routine. It can be very helpful.

Some of us are sharing our experiences, with a bit of knowledge to back it up, and others are experts, so keep that in mind. I fall into the first category.

I was really sad to read how overwhelmed you are feeling, because I remember that I did, too, at first. I found a vet who decided to help me FOR FREE. He was an older gentleman who had been a professor at UF Vet School, and I really lucked out with him. Even so, when I found the forum & shared it with him, he was impressed by some of the information here that was new to him.

So please don't despair. You will figure it all out. Keep asking questions & venting, It really helps. Take Care----Pam

[CharlytheSheltie]

Charly has been eating the Purina Pro Plan Lamb and Rice formula - first ingredient is lamb followed by rice. It is a light colored kibble but she has been on this in the past and her poop was a normal brown color. Her other sheltie pups in the house eat this and their poop is also a normal brown color.

Before we had the diagnosis, the vet had changed her to the royal canin low fat GI food which has Brewer's rice as the first ingredient followed by corn gluten meal. Since she started the enzymes, i transitioned her back to the Purina for the increased fat content since has lost 0.5 lb in one week. She was a little overweight to start out, so I thought that it would be better for her to be back on the purina pro plan lamb and rice since she had lost weight.

I guess I just need reassurance that this will take some time, and I do admit that I am just super anxious to know that she is going to be okay. Looking at her, you would never know that there is a problem. She is active and energetic - maybe a little too energetic in the wee hours of the morning when she wants a snack to eat.

Do you think that once this stablizes that her need to go poop as frequently will decrease? Maybe when the B12 levels normalize. The vet did not give a number just said that they were low and he wanted to do both IM and PO B12 - the PANZQUIN enzyme supplement has 500mcg of vitamin B12 with each scoop - she gets 3 scoops on each meal.

I appreciate help and reassurance,
Jennifer

[Olesia711]

Oh Jennifer, i am so sorry to hear that you lost a pp at only 5 months old..... that is so very sad!!!!!!!!!

REgarding EPI...... once you learn what the right balance of the recommended EPI protocol works best for your dog... EPI is actually easy to manage.... it is the SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis (gut flora imbalance) that causes more angst. But once you figure out how to get your dog's SID in good control, then when there is a set-back, you will be familiar with it and know how to get it under good control.

The reason why EPI sounds so convoluted is because it's not just about giving enzymes for EPI and that's it.. but rather... you have to figure out how to get the SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis under good control ... i strongly suggest going to the MANAGING EPI TAB and specifically read the SID/SIBO, Diet and B12 tabs.... and you'll understand it's all about juggling these 3 in addition to giving the enzymes that makes it sound so confusing, but it really is not once you get the hang of it.

To answer your question, if your dog is already getting periodic B12 shots, it should not need oral B12.
If the only other B12 your dog is getting is either in the food or the enzymes, then i recommend also giving oral B12 periodically.

Will your dog get Diabetes, just because it has EPI. Absolutely not!!! Percentage-wise, it is not overly common for an EPI dog to develop Diabetes, but yes it does happen. More than the vets claim, but way less than for it to be considered a common happening with EPI.

[CharlytheSheltie]

Now I am wondering since Charly’s TPI was 10.9 and her b12 low but folate normal- elevated of maybe she is more of a SIBO case rather than EPI. Is this possible?

If this is the case, is there any harm to her being on the Palauan/pancreatic enzymes?

Let me know your thoughts on my hypothesis,
Jennifer

[Olesia711]

Hi Jennifer,

With the value of 10.9... that is too close for comfort IMHO.... so i would treat as if she has EPI... but that being said.... i would also re-test her with a follow up TLI test in about 4 to 6 months. If the TLI is dropping then she is definitely segueing into EPI.... if the TLI re-test score is segueing into higher numbers, then i would feel comfortable saying that she does not have EPI... but that yes, SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis is going on... BUT you will then need to further look at other possibilities of what might be going on................

[CharlytheSheltie]

Just wanted to update on Charly.

She has now been on PANZQUIN supplementation for one week now. She has also been on VISBIOME PROBIOTICS for 5 days now as well. She is eating well and the frequency of her poop is much less. For example, before Prior to the start of the medications, she would have upwards of 5-6 times per day that she was pooping large quantities of cow patty type yellow appearing poop.

Now, the frequency has decreased to about 2-3 times per day. THe consistency has become more firm but still not brown in color. Maybe a slight increase in darkening of the poop.

Please let me know if you think that we are moving in the right direction.

Thanks in advance,
Jennifer

[Olesia711]

Hi Jennifer,

Yes, it sounds like things are heading in the right direction, but that something might need "tweaking" or slight adjustment,
How much PANZQUIN are you giving per 1 cup of food.... AND if you are mixing it in dry food, are you wetting the food and letting it sit for about 15-20 minutes first before serving.

The instructions say 3/4 to 1 tsp of enzymes.... in the beginning it is usually good practice to start with the higher dose and taper down once the poos are normal.

The 2-3 poos daily is normal.... the only other thing is the color of the poo... it could be on the light side because of the food composition (made with light colored proteins) ... OR.... it could be that not enough enzymes are being given at this time....

[CharlytheSheltie]

Thank you for your response.

She is getting 3/4 teaspoon of panzquin with each meal. And yes, I let it incubate for 20 minutes prior to her eating. I do mix it in some wet food and then mix that with her kibble. She gets about 1.25 cups of purina sport lamb and rice 27/17 twice daily.

Any other thoughts on tweaking or give it more time?

Thanks again,
Jennifer

[Olesia711]

Ahhhh.... since you are giving her 1+1/4 cups start giving her 1+1/4 tsps of enzymes.... let us know if you see ANY improvement after 3 or 5 days......................

If not.... THEN we will consider that it is the food that is not agreeing.

The fact that you are feeding a food with grain in it... it may or may not ......be the underlying problem.... but before driving yourself nuts changing foods ..... lets try "tweaking" the enzymes....


1. The problem with food with grain in it is that "some" EPI dogs can't handle it because grain can interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between "0" to "50" %. Our problem is that we have no idea which dog is affected y this and if so by what percentage.

2. On the flip side, grain (with certain fibers) is what helps keep SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis in check... and all dogs with EPI have SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis to one degree or another.

SO.....between the two issues above we, as EPI care-givers, have to be observant with our dogs and figure out what kind of diet works best for our EPI dogs ... this is also why we suggest keeping an EPI journal.... there are some examples on this page: https://epi4dogs.com/epi-log/

[CharlytheSheltie]

Ok and thank you I will increase the enzyme amount with her meal.

One detail that I had forgotten to include was the fact that she had been diagnosed with spay incontinence around 2 years of age and has been on proin 16 mg daily.

Any connection with spay oncontinence and EPI?