Introducing June, our English Springer Spaniel + EPI, itching, and/or allergies?

[JunieTunes88]

Hello everyone! First of all, I have to give a huge “Thank you!” to this forum and the folks running the site. While this is our first post here, I’ve been visiting Epi4Dogs regularly since our girl was diagnosed in Spring 2024. The advice here has been a godsend through many ups and downs of our EPI journey.

June is a 1.5 y/o English Springer Spaniel. She was diagnosed in March 2024 after she started having soft stools (which devolved into the classic EPI stools) right after the new year. We saw a new vet in mid-February and she diagnosed June with EPI in just three weeks, which I now realize is pretty fast compared to the struggles some folks go through!

Overall, June’s EPI treatment has gone really well. We’ve had a few little slips, but she’s done great up to this point. She regained all of her lost weight is now a healthy 41 lbs. She is also very active, running and hiking about 12-16 miles weekly with me and my husband.

We started out on this food and enzyme combination:
* Hill’s prescription diet I/d Digestive Care Chicken dry food
* Hill’s prescription diet I/d Digestive Care Chicken & Veg wet food (1 small scoop to mix with her enzymes per meal)
* PanaKare, 1 tsp. per cup of food
* Nutramax Cobalequin chewable B12 supplements, 1x daily

This combo worked great but was $$$. Since she had regained her lost weight and was tolerating everything well, we decided to trial her on enzymes from Enzyme Diane, which we began in late July. This also seemed to go well, so we then got the green light from her vet to transition to a non-prescription food, which we began in mid-August.

This is her current routine:
* Farmina N&D Chicken & Pomegranate Grain-Free dry food 1 c., 2x daily
* Enzyme Diane Pancreatin 6x, 1 tsp. per c. Food
* A bit of warm water to dissolve the enzymes (rest 20 minutes before eating)
* Continued Cobalequin supplements

EDIT: I should mention that she just ran out of the last of her wet food last week, and we made a full transition to the warm water dissolving method.

In the last one to two weeks, we have noticed her starting to itch and lick herself more. This includes her face, ears, paws, and genitals. It’s gotten worse in the last 48 hours, and seems to be bothering her more. I also noticed today that her breath seems to stink. I’m not sure if it’s the “EPI stink” people talk about or not, but it seems like a sour smell. I don’t notice any smell from her paws or ears. I tried giving her some Benadryl this morning but that didn’t seem to help.

There seem to be so many possibilities here that I’m not sure what to try first. I am wondering if there is anything here that could be connected to her EPI in some way that I should consider first before I move on to various types of allergies. As best I can tell, it seems like there would be four candidates to explore:
* Something to do with EPI or her enzymes
* A food allergy to the Farmina N&D
* Seasonal allergies of some kind?
* Coat dryness or itchiness

I would welcome any ideas, insights, things to try first, or a process of elimination I should consider. Thank you all in advance for your help!

[Olesia711]

Hi June's human care-giver ,

Thank you for letting us know that this forum and website has been helpful to you managing June's EPI. That was very sweet of you and we appreciate it!

SO..... on to your observations "In the last one to two weeks, we have n ... our smell. "

I suspect two things.... and have a third suggestion

#1 there may be an ingredient in the current food that is simply NOT agreeing with her, and it has built up in her system and that is why it seems to have greatly worsen in the last few days...... this does not necessarily mean that she has a sensitivity to the protein in the food, like chicken, but rather it could be some minor ingredient that is setting her off. For example... we had a member who for two years struggled trying to figure out what in the world was bothering her dog. they tried various commercial kibble... in the end the culprit was not a protein but rather sunflower oil!

#2 oftentimes when the ears, paws, etc are itchy and they lick themselves, again... this usually points to sensitivities.... which in turn doesn't agree with the body, triggering inflammation which in turn can exacerbate SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis that all dogs with EPI have to one degree or another.... and out-of-control SID/SIBO/Dysbiosis in turn can trigger stinky breath!

#3 although prescription foods are usually not necessary with EPI dogs UNLESS there is a specific reason for it....what also might be happening is that the I/D food you were feeding her had lots of prebiotics in it.... when there is Dysbiosis going on prebiotics actually help .... but then when you switched to regular commercial food, if prebiotics are included in the Farmina N&D Chicken & Pomegranate Grain food... it is minimal compared to the Hill's I/D food. But on the flip side... you really don't want a dog on the I/D food forever either... usually it is just used to "fix" or improve the gut

SO.... you did the right thing... BUT....you might need to first talk to the vet about giving June a quality pre+probiotic.... look at Visbiome or Proviable.... and then if you can, temporarily home-prepare food for June and strip the meal down to only 2 items. One carb and one protein (or look at a limited commercial diet)... first try something "whitefish" - based... and then every 3 to 5 days... add just 1 ingredient at a time that was in the Farmina food.

I do have a question for you.... were you using the :
Farmina N&D Chicken & Pomegranate Grain FREE food???
or
Farmina N&D Chicken & Pomegranate Ancestral Grain food???

sometimes with itchy paws, ears, chewing of the feet, etc is from too much processed commercial stuff... so another thing you can do is reduce that by adding real meat and veggies to the meal.

In the meantime.... if none of this helps... and if June starts having tummy aches, farting, having loose stools (more than once) then talk to the vet about doing a course of Tylan (45 days/twice daily)....

[JunieTunes88]

Thank you for all these helpful thoughts and details! I think this tracks with what we suspected. To answer your question, I just checked and the food is definitely the Grain free formulation.

Starting yesterday, I gave her a bit of rice with plain scrambled eggs (no oils, etc.) for meals. I mixed in her enzymes and some coconut oil, just in case her skin is dry for some reason. We will pick up some chicken to add in.

As a starting point of comparison, I ran the ingredient lists for the Farmina N&D and the Hills food through ChatGPT and looked for ingredient differences. Some are things we know she has no sensitivities to (e.g. sweet potatoes, chicken) because we fed her a homemade diet for a while when we were trying to dx the EPI.

There are obviously lots of differences but one that caught my eye was herring, because I know she hasn’t had it before. That might be an early option to test. Would it be best to try giving her some of the herring after 3-5 days of no itching and seeing if she gets itchy again? And then if it’s not that, just keep working down the list of the Farmina ingredients?

Should I reach out to the vet and ask about the pre+probiotic now? Or start with the food and then add the prebiotic if things aren’t improving very quickly?

[Olesia711]

So... since you started her on this:
Starting yesterday, I gave her a bit of rice with plain scrambled eggs (no oils, etc.) for meals. I mixed in her enzymes and some coconut oil, just in case her skin is dry for some reason. We will pick up some chicken to add in.

Give this a few days... and see if you notice ANY change in the itching..... and write it down!!! Cause (and i have been guilty of this) you swear you are going to remember the results but in the end... you don't.... Then YES.. buy a can of sardines, packed in water/no salt.... and give her one with a meal...see what happnes over the next 24-48 hours.... if the itching has increased or stayed the same... and then i'd wait at least 3 days before trying the next food item.

With regards to the pre+probiotics.... yes, i would call the vet and ask them (also ask them if they agree with giving pre+probiotics at this time- -don't jsut go on my suggestion) .... BUT... when you do give pre+probiotics..... treat it as another "adding one-thing-at-a-time" and observe for a few days before you trial a food item...

You ALWAYS want to try things one at a time.

P.S..... unless you know for sure there is not a problem with the coconut oil... i would remove that for now... and add later it won't hurt to go for a few weeks without coconut oil for skin issues................

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Coconut oil gave Tucker hives, so, yes, it could be a bizarre culprit.---P

[Patsy]

Hello June, no additional suggestions, but just greetings to another Springer spaniel owner. It’s really hard at first, especially if food /treatment related or in our case , other autoimmune problems that can occur. Mine developed epi at 4, and passed away peacefully eight years later from heart failure. She was a beautiful girl.
It sounds like your vet is knowledgable and willing to listen. Share the website with them, there is so much more research for them to read. So many vets are still unaware of epi , or go through expensive investigations before coming across it. Spread the word!

[JunieTunes88]

Hi all, I thought I would provide a quick update since we’ve gotten a few more clues since last week on June’s itching and smell.

My partner came home from a work trip, got one sniff of June, and said it was her anal glands. We were able to have her seen this morning by a vet tech and he was right! Apparently her glands were badly swollen and needed expressed. They did that and she had immediate pain relief and no more smell! So that is one symptom alleviated for the time being.


The tech told us that exaggerated anal glands are a common side effect of allergies, so it sounds like we are on the right path. It could be food allergies and it could be seasonal. She is going to come back and see her vet on Thursday for a closer look.

In the meantime, her licking/itching seems to have improved on the bland food diet over 3 days. Unfortunately, it seems the rice may not be agreeing with her, as she had an EPI-esque stool today. We are going to adjust the diet accordingly. Once that has stabilized, we also have a tin of sardines to try her with. But we will see what the vet says and take it from there.

[JunieTunes88]

Hello June, no additional suggestions, but just greetings to another Springer spaniel owner. It’s really hard at first, especially if food /treatment related or in our case , other autoimmune problems that can occur. Mine developed epi at 4, and passed away peacefully eight years later from heart failure. She was a beautiful girl.
It sounds like your vet is knowledgable and willing to listen. Share the website with them, there is so much more research for them to read. So many vets are still unaware of epi , or go through expensive investigations before coming across it. Spread the word!

Your springer looks like she was such a sweetheart. It's nice to hear from another ESS owner who has dealt with it. We feel very lucky that our vet has done a good job with June so far. I have also used the EPI website a lot to explain the disease to people, including her breeder. Thanks for your note!

[Olesia711]

try replacing the rice with sweet potato... if that fails... THEN try white potato.... but start with sweet potato if possible.

So glad you figured it out! or at least part of it... and yes.... that is my understanding too plugged anal gland issues often stems for allergies....... so you are indeed on the right path...

P.S....now that your partner identified the "stink" i bet you too will always remember what plugged anal gland smell like (rotten fish!)

[JunieTunes88]

Hello all! I am back with a short update on June and a request for guidance.

After a couple food changes, several probiotics, and two trips to the vet, June is back on her original Hill’s prescription diet I/d dry food. We continued to have problems with poor stool quality, but we became concerned again when she lost a pound or two of weight. She has been on the Hill’s food for a couple weeks now and her stools have improved to almost normal.

At our last vet visit, I asked for a course of Tylan because of June’s poor quality stools, stomach rumbling sounds, gas, and a persistent bad smell around her. The vet wanted to try a course of proviable probiotics first, and we did that with no improvement. That was when we returned to the Hill’s food along with a psyllium husk powder (1 tsp per cup of food). We trialed the psyllium husk first with her old food with no improvement.

My primary question is: now that her stool has normalized, we continue to have problems with her smelling bad. Honestly, it reminds me of the smell of garbage. Ugh! Is this likely still a SID/SIBO issue? Do I need to push for a course of Tylan again? Other ideas?