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[Cheb1313!]

Hello all.
My name is Cheryl and I am the proud owner of Alfie, my beautiful German shepherd who will be 4 years old in December .
6 weeks ago he was rushed into surgery with a GDV- they had to remove his Spleen as they couldn't stop it bleeding , his recovery was good apart from rapid weight loss- and since last wed diarrhea- that I thought I had conquered but yesterday morning there was blood in it ( he has always suffered on and off with this) when he went in for surgery he was 37.5 Kg and at present he is 33- I took him to the vets yesterday and they ultra sounded him run bloods - The vet is 98% sure he has EPI( although still waiting for the results which should be back tomorrow . I am based in Australia and apparently we do not have Tylan over here so he has a course of metronidazole( which I have see on here not recommended but he has had that before and tolerated it quite well , he also has had a B12 injection and he is on Creon- which I have been wrapping in cheese and he guzzles it down in one. Cheese gets warm here as we are in 30 degree heat !
Oh my lordy!- well if I wasn't confused I am now .
Before all this happened his diet is /was that I have always feed twice a day as panicked about bloat always Half a cup of Kibble ( ivory coat grain free Turkey for Mature dog) the reason I had him on that was it had more oils in and less fat as he was always a puppy dog that put on weight too much , 1 grated carrot, home cooked human meat either minced beef or Kangaroo, a handful of spinach or green beans and a small amount of white rice, then in the evening either steamed Basa fish, or roasted chicken, sometimes a can of mackerel a handful of fresh or frozen spinach or even 5 blueberries, half a cup of kibble again making 1 cup of kibble per day and a small amount of white rice and he was dong pretty well on that , when I had him on the bland diet for the diarrhea i changed to boiled chicken and white bread toast ,or freshly cooked mashed potatoes as I wondered if he had become allergic to the rice , I used to have him on quite a bit of sweet potatoes and pumpkin but that did give him bad belly .

So.. where to go .

He is on at present
1 tablet day and night for a week Metronidazole
1 capsule of Creon before every meal
1 B12 tablet per day .

The vet said not to change is diet too much at this moment in time as it still could potentially be IBS, but all the symptoms, the way his poos looks all seems like it is EPI.

So last night I was running out of the bland options of food as it just hasn't been filling him up - I did have him on three meals a day for the last week- but as you all know to no avail and I went out an also got TOW prairie- He has never had an issue with peas, but I am not too sure if he will have now. Since I got him back from the vets last night we have so far not had a poo ( hoping that's going to be a good thing
He has had today so far two meals of which have been :
1 cup kangaroo mince
Half a cup of both mixed Ivory coat and TOW to try and transition
Small amount of Rice and mashed carrot in one meal and the second just some mashed potatoes .

Any help if I am on the right track or not would be greatly appreciated as the more I read here the more confusing it all sounds

Many Thanks - Cheryl and Alfie x

I have often before all this cooked him meats with extra virgin olive oil , fish oil again sometimes has not always worked .

I have no idea if I am on the right track or not - Also with exercising we are used to going out twice a day - its just waking as I cant let him off the lead, but I feel like I am limiting his exercised because I cant have him loose any more weight , so we have just been going out once a day for about 20 minutes, just so he doesn't go insane

[Cheb1313!]

I should have said that he is on Creon 25000- ive only just found out there are three strengths

[Chance]

Welcome Cheryl and Alfie!

It will be interesting to see the results of the EPI test. I guess it's possible the pancreas got stressed out during the bloat scare and surgery. You were wise to recognize the symptoms and get him in on time to save him! He's lucky to have a faithful, caring mom!

Regarding food, I have to say I haven't fed kibble in about 15 years, so I'm kinda out of the loop on many of them. But if it is EPI, you'll have to watch the fiber content. Usually it's recommended to have a fiber content of 4% or less of the total diet. (This is contrary to what you'd want if it did turn out to be IBD. IBD dogs typically do better with high fiber diets).

Spinach and potatoes and other veggies you are adding is fairly high in fiber, so you'd want to be mindful of how much you add. (I will say that I do add veggies into every batch of raw food I make. But it's in moderation! At least 90% of my food is animal based).

Some EPI dogs have some trouble digesting rice. So you may not be able to feed a ton of that either.

You may want to look into trying slippery elm. This can help coat the tummy and ease any upset. It also acts as a prebiotic to help feed the good bacteria.

The Metronidazole, it's not usually a concern with dogs tolerating the medication. It's more a concern that it destroys all the bacteria in the gut, including all of the good guys. It becomes very difficult, if not impossible to ever get many of the good bacteria strains back again. With EPI, or IBD, or even pancreatitis, the bad bacteria already grows very easily. You really do need the good bacteria, or you'll really find it difficult to keep SID/SIBO in check. So it's really better to try a really good probiotic and slippery elm before trying antibiotics - especially Metro.

[Cheb1313!]

Hi thank you so much for coming back to me .

So the taste of the wild has 4 %. Its is better to keep a dog like this on the same food consistently if he is doing ok and not offer two different proteins and alternate at meal times?

What else would you give if not the veggies to try and bulk them up !

I would be happy to go all home cooked - the vet has said on the basis of him now not having a spleen he should have ay raw foods because of the bacteria.

The problem is its so expensive in Australia to live even the food that I am feeding him now costs a fortune- which if its doable I am happy to try I am just not very good with weight ratios and how much he should have - Since yesterday he has only had one small nugget of Poo ! is that normal ? - its 5.53 here oin the afternoon he had his third meal at 3.00 and I am planning on giving him another one at about 7.00. Plus at the moment whilst trying to cook dinner for family I am making him Beef bone broth with carrots in . I have heard that is good for them correct ?

All the help I can get would be great - happy to knock out the veggies and up the kibble and cooked meat if that what I should be doing ?

Thanks - Cheryl

[Cheb1313!]

So sorry I meant he should not have any raw food because of bacteria !

[Cheb1313!]

I should have also said that he is only on the antibiotics for a week to try and clear up the blood that was in his poo.

Should you use slippery elm and pro-biotics or one or the other and is so how much for a dog weighting 33 kilos that should be more like 37 - 40?

Soo many questions x

[jilbert57]

Hi Cheryl, welcome to you and Alfie!
Good job on being proactive and ahead of the issues.
One reason to pare back the diet would be so you don't have a lot of things that are exacerbating the gut issues. Get him stable then add foods back in 1 at a time and note after 2 or 3 days if it is yay or nay. In other words start out basic. Does he like the kibble? Just feed that if you want, 150% of what the bag says for the weight he should be and divide into 3 or 4 meals.
Or start out with one meat or fish, 1 veggie like kale or chard, etc and add some sweet potato.
You see where I am going. Try to keep it basic then add in foods as you go.
We usually start off with a prebiotic(Slippery elm). If that doesn't work add in a probiotiv. If together those don't work we move to Tylan(or metro in your case)
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/

Scroll down this link is our Quick Guide for Australia
https://epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guides-outside-usa/

I don't have a current Epi dog but my 9yo jack had a tumor on his spleen and had both removed end of July. I reached out to a holistic vet with help for a diet for 1) spleen removal and 2) allergies. He is on a homemade diet of bison, brusdel sprouts , carrots and supplements to balance plus a Chinese herb for the blood. I cook the carrots, grind brussel sprouts raw, add to bidon and cook in a loaf.

Jill

[Chance]

Raw feeding is not for everyone.. I get it. I haven't heard that raw feeding wasn't good once the spleen was removed. I had only heard of it being a problem after intestinal surgery. But home cooking is also good, especially if intestines were affected at all during surgery.

Cost wise, it is expensive! But usually not more so than a high end kibble. I buy my meat from a local dog meat supplier.

I do add veggies, as I said. But in moderation, as they will reduce the efficacy of the enzymes in most EPI dogs. And I know that Rylee does have issues with massive poops more often if I give too much.

I do also add in eggs. (Eggs, I do cook). There's no fiber in eggs.

In terms of mixing your kibble with the cooked food, that should be fine, as long as there's no IBD. For EPI, it should be fine. The only concern would be if it was raw food mixed with kibble. That's fine for many dogs, but as they are digested at different rates, it can be harder for some. But cooked with kibble, it's still digested at the same rate.

[Cheb1313!]

Hi .

Thank for coming back to me This morning he has had a massive little bit firm wet poo almost like a cow pat - where as yesterday a hard softer but firm small nugget .

Do the Creon tablets work instantly or will it all take a few day s ie in regards to poop and feeding what the time frame to know when to change the diet if its not working ?

[Eddiespaghetti]

Creon is instant and short acting. It literally breaks down the fats and carbs and leaves. Which is why every meal needs enzymes.
The cow patty poos are either from SIDs or left over yucks from pre diagnosis. The slippery elm might help if not tylan will. Metronidazole is a pretty good short term antibiotics. It is quite strong. It does do a scorched earth approach. The biggest issues is with SIDs it usually needs to be a long course of antibiotics. Tylan is the correct recommendation and for 45 days. Metronidazole if giving for 45 day will lead to toxic levels. Tylan is a microlade and it just prevents bacteria from growing and is tolerated in a lot of dogs at insanely high levels without issues.