Epi4Dogs

Monday's enzymes were at the vet yesterday, so we were able to pick those up - I will be buying from Diane's enzymes in future - my goodness these were expensive!

Anyway, Monday had her very first dose of enzymes with her dinner last night. Overnight she had watery, horrible diarrhea.
This morning, she is back to her normal, yellow cow patty.

How long before we see a difference in the poops before we need to adjust things?

Against the vet advice, she is now on low fiber food (4%) and higher 15% fat (vet wants her on low fat - but we are not going that route just now)

I am attributing the water bout of diarrhea to:
- She got a bath yesterday - she was not a fan
- She went to the vet yesterday - again, not a fan
- She had the enzymes for the first time on her food - it was food, so she approved, but it was a switch up by adding the enzymes and she doesn't do well with changes.

HI THERE

Your post duplicated so I deleted one

they were identical

so which enzymes are you using , and how much to say a cup of kibble ?

which food are you using ?

are you supplementing b12

any tummy rumbles ?

if you have said any of this before, many apologies

keep a journal on anything you do

could you add a signature saying what your regime is so we can keep up

any problems, please ask


Jean

Lol I posted a long reply. Must've been on the deleted one!
Jean covered it. Good luck.

Jill I am so sorry I checked there was nothing there before I deleted it

J

I was going to ask how you prepare the food with the enzymes. Thanks

The vet has her on Panakare enzymes 1tsp per meal.

We feed her 4Health Chicken and Rice, 1.5 cups per meal, 3 times per day. Her ideal body weight is 40 to 45 lbs (she currently weighs 31lbs)

Obviously, this all very new for her - new food, enzymes, etc.
First enzymes were given last night. about 45 minute incubation. She ate last night at around 6. (may have been a few minutes later, we were on a walk before dinner, observing the pretty bees in the sunflower and then Monday decided to go chasing rabbits, so that got us back to the house late)

Vit b12 shot given around 4:30 pm yesterday. 1/ml per vet instruction.
Midnight - watery diarrhea.

6AM breakfast time... after a 20 minute incubation.
6:15 AM - her poo was her normal yellow cowpie - now this was ONLY her second dose of enzymes

She is super gassy today. And I am having to keep a close eye on her as she has decided to eat poo again... I am so glad she isn't a licker... other than that she is her normal self...

You know, on her cTLIs test, doc said her Folate and Cobalamine were good, but she didn't even register for the TLI. It wasn't low.. it wasn't there at all!

Hi
If she is eating 4.5 cups of kibble a day she should be getting 4.5 teaspoons of enzyme If they are 6x strength.
The amount of enzymes is in accordance with how much kibble is fed, not on weight of dog or how many meals a day.

At some point if you can't get the poop right it might be the rice .Some dogs can have rice, some not. Sometimes chicken might be iffy.

If gassy it might be SID and would need to be addressed with antibiotics.

Yes, my Tucker was only on the enzymes & B12 (just over the counter people pills), but it wasn't until the vet added Tylan, an antibiotic, that we really started seeing a difference. I know a lot of people use probiotics, but those gave Tucker the runs, so we stopped. As I recall, the changes came gradually, so hang in there. ---Pam

Hi and welcome to our EPI family. A few questions to help us get a better idea of what to suggest. What was the TLI, B12 and Folate score when tested and was your pup fasted for at least 12 hours before the test was done? What B12 shot are you giving - is it simple B12 or a multi-vitamin B12?

It sounds like you are dealing with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis), which all EPI dogs have, it's just a matter of getting it under control and then keeping it under control - easier said than done sometimes. So, first, if it were me I would switch to a grain free food with 4% fiber or less with little or no peas - several of us have recently switched to Sport Dog Food Elite with really good results but there is a list of dog food option on our website https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/. Next, I would ask your vet for a prescription for Tylan antibiotics - a lot of vets are unfamiliar with using Tylan to treat SID and usually recommend Metronidazole (Flagyl), however, research has shown Tylan works better, is gentler and doesn't wipe out the entire gut flora . https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

Next, the recommended starting dose of enzymes is 1tsp per cup of kibble, so unfortunately your vet has given you wrong instructions, which is common. Mix the enzymes in a little luke warm water, then mix with kibble and incubate 20-30 minutes.

The hardest part of EPI is the beginning, finding the right balance of everything to get the optimal results, but it can happen and we are here to make sure it does.

...was your pup fasted for at least 12 hours before the test was done?

Yes.

What B12 shot are you giving - is it simple B12 or a multi-vitamin B12?

Vitamin B12 Injection (Cyanocobalamin) 1000 mcg/mL

It sounds like you are dealing with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis), which all EPI dogs have, it's just a matter of getting it under control and then keeping it under control - easier said than done sometimes. So, first, if it were me I would switch to a grain free food with 4% fiber or less with little or no peas

- the food she is on: 4Health Chicken and Rice - I got the brand from EPI4Dogs dog food options page. We selected this variety, even though it isn't on the list, because it has 4% Crude Fiber, 15% Fat, specifically - this one has no peas, the other ones (the ones with potato, do have pea as one of the top ingredients and higher fiber. This is one of those areas we will be watching and ready to switch out as needed. Tractor Supply is the seller, and because I live rural, I am limited in my immediate need choices.... Good news, today is much better.... one of the key things I put in my post is that she had JUST started treatment with her PM feeding on Friday. Monday is VERY sensitive to any change... on Friday these things happened: She had a bath - she hates that. She went to the vet - hates that too. She had an accident at the vet in front of a whole room full of people - she is very shy and was embarrassed so she hid behind my knees after, poor thing. She had enzymes for the first time! She was JUST coming off the vet prescribed Bland Diet and onto a new food - very sensitive. I was not super surprised she had diarrhea that night. It was a really stressful day for her. THAT SAID, only the one bout of diarrhea, since then her poos are getting progressively better in quality, and way less quantity! YAY !!!! This morning's poo was well-formed, still yellow, but not as soft. Fun finds, apparently Monday is eating a toy (which I have since thrown away). Coprophagia behavior does seem to be increased at the moment... keeping an eye on that. Since Friday, she has gained almost a pound in weight. INCREDIBLE!

- several of us have recently switched to Sport Dog Food Elite with really good results but there is a list of dog food option on our website https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/

. - Thank you! I will look at that Sport Dog Food Elite option if we see we need a change and will order

Next, I would ask your vet for a prescription for Tylan antibiotics - a lot of vets are unfamiliar with using Tylan to treat SID and usually recommend Metronidazole (Flagyl), however, research has shown Tylan works better, is gentler and doesn't wipe out the entire gut flora . https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ -

Thank you! Do you think we should wait until confirmed that we need it or just get her on it forever and ever? Do the bacteria become immune over time like with other antibiotics? After her first vet visit, she was treated with two antibiotics Metronidazole and something else. I am noticing possibly undigested food still in her stool from Thursday. Seems to be some whole rice grains (vet had her on homemade chicken and rice for nearly two weeks while we worked on figuring out what was wrong) so would not be surprised to see a bacteria issue due to the length of food stayed in her gut. What about probiotics? The food Monday is on, DOES have a healthy dose of several good gut flora - Lactobacillus

Next, the recommended starting dose of enzymes is 1tsp per cup of kibble, so unfortunately your vet has given you wrong instructions, which is common. Mix the enzymes in a little luke warm water, then mix with kibble and incubate 20-30 minutes.

Yes! Made that change yesterday midday meal

The hardest part of EPI is the beginning, finding the right balance of everything to get the optimal results, but it can happen and we are here to make sure it does.

And this is the heart of my question - Monday is super sensitive to change... When do I know I need to tweak something? How long do we try something before deciding it doesn't work? a week? 5 days? I know I am not going to see immediate changes.