Older Shiloh Shepherd

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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AnubisofGuardian
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Posts: 4
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Pet name: Anubis
My name: Rhonnie

Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by AnubisofGuardian » 12 Sep 2019, 17:43

Hello all,
I'm new to this forum although I've had my EPI shepherd for ten years now. He was diagnose at just over a year old and he's been relatively stable for the last eight plus years. Now though in the last eight months he's seems to be heading downhill. He's having fecal incontinence issues and its been a couple of weeks since his stools have even come close to somewhat normal. He seems to be more lethargic lately as well but other than that he seems fairly normal and happy. I suspect that it might be an issue with his B12 levels so I will be looking into a supplement for him. The vets up here don't know much at all about his condition and actually rely more on me to help them when coming up with a treatment. I can't even seem to load him in my SUV anymore without him having an accident. I have him on 3tsp of the Panc-Aid powder in his food, I don't really want to have to increase that amount at its very expensive here to get. If anyone has any ideas of things I can look into, I'm happy to hear them.

Thank you all in advance!
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Much Love and Light!

Rhonnie

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Michaela
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Posts: 26
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Nikki

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by Michaela » 12 Sep 2019, 18:34

Welcome! :)

Our Shepherds are about the same age, my Nikki will be 10 in November. I don't know how much you are paying for your enzymes but we us Pan-tenex and have been very happy. https://www.pantenexdogenzymes.com/prod ... nex-canada

Also check with Diane: https://enzymediane.com/product-category/pancreatin-6x/

Some other members will chime in soon with suggestions on how to help your boy, you're in good hands, this is the BEST group!
Nikki was diagnosed with EPI in 2010
Royal Canin Potato & Duck canned
Slippery Elm syrup for stomach issues
1.5 tsp Pan-Tenex enzymes with each meal
Weekly B12 shots, pills didn't work for her
Tylan for life

Tuckaboo.
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Posts: 70
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by Tuckaboo. » 12 Sep 2019, 21:13

Enzyme Diane! i think I am now paying about 25% of what I paid for enzymes from my vet. And I wonder if your vet would watch this video. https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/h ... -dogs.aspx

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by jilbert57 » 12 Sep 2019, 23:25

Hi and welcome to the forum.
How much enzyme are you using per cup of dry kibble are you using? Sometimes as dogs get older the enzyme needs to be tweaked up.
Here is the link for the Wonderlabs B12 with Intrinsic Factor:

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 12 yrs young. TJ is a 3 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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TerryBin
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by TerryBin » 13 Sep 2019, 00:17

Hello and Welcome! Glad to hear all has gone well for so many years. Have you had a vet take a look lately? Sometimes we think everything is related to EPI and these pups still get many other conditions. Fecal incontinence is not a normal symptom of EPI....if it is so liquid that may be why the incontinence but there could be something else going on besides the EPI. As the pups get older they often need more enzymes with their food and low B12 can also make the poops bad. Maybe try upping the enzyme by 1/8tsp and start B12 supplements. Keep us posted.
Beautiful Shiloh. Wonderful pups aren't they?!
3 Shiloh Shepherd Pups!
Taiko was born 6 September 2006 and had EPI; she passed over the Rainbow Bridge 10 april 2019 NOT EPI-related.
Pharaoh born 24 November 2007 and has EPI.
Moku born 15 April 2014 and was dx with EPI in January 2019.
Hoshi born 6 July 2019 and does not have EPI
Taiko and Pharaoh were half siblings through their sire; their sire is Moku's grandfather through his Mom. Moku and Hoshi have the same sire.
Pharaoh and Moku use PancreaPlus tablets and receive weekly B12 shots at home.

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AnubisofGuardian
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Posts: 4
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Pet name: Anubis
My name: Rhonnie

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by AnubisofGuardian » 13 Sep 2019, 12:28

Thank you all for the warm welcome!

For the last couple of years the vet has had Anubis on the Hills Z/D diet and its helped a little but he still gets flare ups of severe diarrhea, gas and vomiting plus I've been having to feed him a total of nearly eight cups of kibble a day just to try and maintain his current weight at 53kg. (Hills Z/D = Protien - 19.1%; Fat - 14.4%; Fiber - 4.4%; Cal - 354Kal/cp) He's on the lean side which is great for a dog his size (32" withers) but over the last eight months he's been dropping weight and I hadn't made any changes to his diet and the enzymes had gone from 1 1/2 tsp to 3 tsp in the last year or so. I've found this other type of food from the local feed store called First Mate with this ingredient list:
Ocean Fish Meal Burbank Potato Norkotah Potato Tomato Pomace Chicken Fat (Mixed Tocopherols) Dicalcium Phosphate Choline Chloride Calcium Propionate Minerals (Zinc Proteinate Iron Proteinate Manganese Proteinate Copper Proteinate Iodine Cobalt Carbonate Selenium Yeast) Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement Riboflavin Niacin D-pantothenic Acid Thiamine hydrochloride Vitamin A Supplement Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Biotin Folic Acid Vitamin B12 Supplement Vitamin D3 Supplement) Yeast Extract Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Break down is: Protein - 23%; Fat - 10%; Fiber - 8%; Cal - 484kal/cp)

Is this a good choice to switch him to? I know EPI dogs are a trail and error and there's no 'one cure' for everyone but it breaks my heart to see him losing weight and being so lethargic. He had a cysts on his shoulder removed in July and they did a basic blood panel on him then and it didn't show anything. I also had his spine, hips and knees xrayed as he's been tripping like crazy over his own two back feet. Vet said that he has arthritis in his lumbar discs and especially where they connect to his hips. The knees and hips themselves were great. The incontinence appears mostly related to when his stools are very loose, much like the number '7' on the poop chart.

I will chat with my vet and see about getting him hooked up on this site or even some of the other informational pages I've located in my ongoing research. In the clinic there's only one other dog besides mine that has EPI. They use a number of my dog's xrays as case studies for students that come in for practical experience. For a 4 ounce tub of enzyme I pay about $105 CAN and that usually lasts me about two to two and a half weeks. The Z/D bag of food also costs me about the same for the same length of time. Sorry for the long post but I really appreciate all the feedback and knowledge!!
Much Love and Light!

Rhonnie

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jilbert57
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Posts: 597
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Sep 2019, 12:33

Hi Rhonnie,
The First Mate is great food. The fish has 8% fiber. We recommend 4% or lower for Epi dogs. Is there one with lower fiber?

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 12 yrs young. TJ is a 3 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

Barb
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Posts: 294
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by Barb » 14 Sep 2019, 15:27

Welcome to you and your handsome boy! I am sorry he is having difficulties. For sure I would recommend that he have B12 supplements. Wonderlabs has very reasonable B12 capsules with Intrinsic Factor which you need in B12 pills so that it can be absorbed. You can get 120 capsules for about $18.

Also, if this is EPI related, can you clarify the amount of food and enzymes he is getting? Is he getting 8 cups of food with 3 tsp of enzymes? I am not sure if that is what you meant to say.

However, I am wondering about your pup tripping over his back legs and the fecal incontinence. As Terry said, sometimes we see everything through our EPI lens because that has been our focus with our pups for years.....and then something else sneaks up on us. When he has his accidents, does he not seem to know that he has to go or does the diarrhea just come too fast? Have you noticed that he crosses his hind legs when standing or they turn inward? I think you said the vet said this was due to arthritis.

Hopefully, you can get some answers for your boy when you see your vet again. He is a beauty.

Barb

Wabasmom
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Posts: 7
Country: United States
Pet name: Jaeger
My name: Alyssa

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by Wabasmom » 15 Sep 2019, 19:56

Welcome...I’m sorry your going through this. Please let me know if you find a solution. Our boy is almost eleven years old and he is having identical issues as yours. I live up north too in a smaller town and vet here is not very well versed in EPI. I will be following this feed

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Olesia711
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Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Sep 2019, 21:12

I am so sorry to hear that Anubis is faltering....and you just are not sure what is going on. It is so hard to watch them struggle and not have any answers.

I am guessing that "maybe" your vet has him on that prescription food because of possible IBD or food sensitivities in addition to EPI??? You might need to try a different hydrolyzed food at this point.. if he does have food sensitivities..... if not, then yes the First Mate sounds like a great food!.

Tripping over his back legs and fecal incontinence sounds like something else might be going on.... :(
If just Arthritis, my dogs (elder now) have done very well with a Gabapentin morning and night for the pain.
However, before things got super difficult for them, i did use Traumeel for years (worked better than Rimadyl with no adverse effects) and i used System Saver for Dogs.....within 5 days i saw marked improvement. BUT..... before buying/trying any supplements... it sounds like it would be best to first find out what is really going on.

Please keep us posted!
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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