isn't eating

[Btekrony]

My George is struggling with eating again. Yesterday, we managed to get some chicken and rice in him, but he was still very reluctant to eat. We did the best we could to sprinkle enzymes and water on it and allow it to incubate for 20 minutes. He is on day 6 of Tylosin. He doesn't have runny poop, just slimy. Thoughts??

[Olesia711]

Hi sorry to hear that George is struggling with eating again......
Since i don't know the back story (i only come on the forum occasionally) i am going to make some suggestions, but if they have already been mentioned, i apologize.

First, although not the best system, what you might want to try next is to camouflage the enzymes.... try pouring the designated amount of enzymes you are using into empty gel caps, once he has some food in his belly... tuck the enzymed capsules into some soft food... (maybe mush up some ground chicken and or tuck the capsules in a little blob of baked/skinned/mashed sweet potato...or if George can tolerate diary, tuck the capsule in a little blob of cream cheese)

See if him not tasting the enzymes directly on the food helps.

Regarding the slime on the poo, although not runny... sounds like a little SID still still out of control, but the fact that the poo is not runny also sounds like the Tylan is working.

Like i said, i am not current with George's journey here..... but the #1 question is if his B12 is sufficient???? Was he tested, is he getting B12 pills or shots? If so what kind, how much and how often.

Please let us know if camouflaging the enzymes helps.

Also.... the rice..... have you tried him without rice, sometimes grains lessen the efficacy of the enzymes and this is why we suggest to almost everyone when they start with an EPI dog to start with low fiber (non-grain food)..... but on the flip side, there are dogs that actually need a little more fiber in the food.... and this is why we first suggest starting with something like sweet potato. Although we have general protocols, in the end, it really depends on the individual dog what food works best for them, we can only give you suggestions on what appears to agree with most (but not always all) dogs when it comes to diet...................

[Jean]

this is the ingredient anaysis

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Herring Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Natural Flavor, Salt, Dried Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin), Carrots, Apples, Cranberries, Montmorillonite Clay, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide), Choline Chloride, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Chicken Liver, Pumpkinseeds, Freeze Dried Chicken Heart, Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract.

Our recipe has been updated due to a change in our turkey meal supply. In making this change, we maintained the high quality sourcing, nutrition, palatability and digestibility of our foods and we do not expect any disruption for your pet. A link to a side-by-side recipe comparison can be found above.
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to be honest a lot of our dogs mine included couldnt tolerate chicken , this has both chicken and chicken fat

and rice was a definite no no, mashe potato perhaps

the rabbit variety doesnt have chicken fat

the duck variety has chicken meal, as does the beef variety

if it were me , I would maybe try the rabbit one, get the smallest bag you can, what dose of Tylan are you giving,

[Btekrony]

He takes two capsules of B12 with intrinsic factor. He had his B12 levels checked last year and they were very high, which I know is good. I have been thinking about putting his enzymes in capsules. So I can't give him a couple and then feed him? He has to have some food in his belly and then tuck the capsules in some soft food?

The only reason my husband gave him some rice was to get some food in him. He has been on Purina Pro Plan for sensitive skin and stomach (which has grain) for many months now and has been fine. I did try to give him a small handful of kibble without anything on it this morning and he wouldn't even eat that.

[Btekrony]

I need to update the food that we are giving him. He's on Purina Proplan for sensitive skin and stomach with Lamb. I'm giving him 1/4 tsp of Tylosin twice a day.

[Jean]

there is chicken in the Purina you mention

Lamb (19%), maize, dehydrated poultry protein, rice (8%), animal fat, maize grits, dried beet pulp, soya meal, maize gluten meal, autolysate, dried egg, minerals, fish oil.
Additives per kg:
Nutritional additives:
Vitamin A (28,000 IU), vitamin D3 (910mg), vitamin E (550mg), vitamin C (140mg), bentonite (6000mg), L-carnitine, iron sulphate monohydrate (270mg), calcium iodate anhydrous (3.5mg), copper sulphate monohydrate (55mg), manganese sulphate monohydrate (130mg), zinc sulphate monohydrate (460mg), sodium selenite (0.32mg).

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and I would want to know what the animal fats are, and rice doesnt always work

no one said this was easy, Kara was intollerant of rice, pork, beef, white fish and chicken in any form

I went though so many foods, and spent so much money , but its what we do

maybe look around again

[Olesia711]

What you want to try is to make sure he has "some" food in his belly before you give the capsules with the powdered enzymes in it.
can you buy a can of canned food (with no grain in it) and try tucking the enzymed capsule(s) in that? Or, if George can tolerate dairy products, cottage cheese is a good topper and cream cheese is a good source to tuck pills in.

BUT... now that i know you are giving Purina Pro Plan, a kibble..... like Jean said, some dogs have issues with commercial food made with chicken, others are just fine with it. SOme dogs (altough not all) struggling with EPI seems to do well with a white fish food .....of course this suggestion is no guarantee that George will respond well to it, but also might be something to try. Actually, instead of wasting a lot of money on a whole bag of food, what you can do is buy white fish at the store, bake it and sprinkle a little on top of George's kibble and see if he "likes" it and then watch to see how his poops are, if it helps his appetite. If every thing looks like a winner, then buy a bag of food. I personally feed my EPI gal Sport Elite that has no peas, no grain but main proteins is white fish and she is doing very well on it: https://www.chewy.com/sport-dog-food-el ... /dp/172138

Glad to hear that you are giving the B12 and it sounds like George's B12 was good so most likely continues to be good.
And it sounds like you are giving the right amount of Tylan too.

[Olesia711]

Oh geez!!!!! I just noticed... you are giving 2 cups of food with 1 tsp of Pantenex enzymes????????????????????

This could be part of the problem with why George had to be placed on Tylan.....no matter what the company says or what the label says(we have run into this issue before) usually you need 1 tsp of enzymes per 1 cup of food.....(so in George's case, you should be giving 2 tsps of enzymes per 2 cups of food).... and then ONCE the dog is stable THEN you can "try" reducing the amount of enzymes needed to "maintain" the EPI. We reduce by 1/8 of a tsp every few days, monitor the poop and as soon as the poop goes south, then you know you have reduced the enzymes by a little too much. Some EPI dogs do fine with a reduced amount of enzymes after they are stable (at least for a month= good normal poos delivered 1-3 times daily) and then again, there are some dogs that can never have the enzymes reduced...and then there are even some dogs that actually need a pinch more...

Like i said earlier, i do not know George's back story, but just in case no one mentioned this, i thought i should, just in case it is part of his issue.

[Btekrony]

Pantenex is 10 times the strength. Should I still give him 2 tsps?

[Olesia711]

YES!!!!! please do give him 2 level tps per 2 cups of food.
I know Pantenex claims that their product is 10x so you don't need as much... but you really need to go by the actualy USP units of first and foremost, the Lipase, then the Amylase and Protease enzyme ingredients in the products.

SO........ i am including a picture of Pantenenx (i just got off their website) and i marked in red the enzymes that they are calling 10x....
and... i jsut took a picture of the enzymes i use from EnzymeDiane... these are 6x enzymes....

Please look for yourself at the USP Lipase units in both products.
They are virtually the same...actually EnzymeDiane's product is a little more potent than Pantenex... but for all practical purposes when deciding how much to give, you would give the same amount of Pantenex 10x as you would Enzyme Diane 6x.

Pantenex.JPG (62.85 KiB) Viewed 4380 times

EnzymeDiane2.JPG (77.23 KiB) Viewed 4380 times

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