How much Beef Pancreas?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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LadysAma
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My name: Karina

How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by LadysAma » 07 Jan 2020, 22:58

Hello. I am completely new to this and I am so very grateful for all of the information on this website!! Lady, my 28 month old long-haired dachshund, was just diagnosed with EPI. She began showing symptoms about 5 months ago and when I took her to the vet, she was diagnosed with IMTP, which took priority over loose stools. Three days later, Lady was hospitalized and was diagnosed with IMHA. Since she had both (IMTP & IMHA), she was diagnosed with Evans Syndrome. She was critical and wasn't responding right away to treatment. Thankfully, she pulled through and just today I was given the green light to stop all medications for her Evans!! Praying that she remains in remission. However, during this time, her stools were loose and output was way more than her intake. Her appetite was voracious! She lost 5 lbs., which to be honest, she had a couple to lose. The vets were not really paying attention to her symptoms and weren't really listening to my concerns. Well, when I learned about EPI, I demanded a fasting blood test. Came back positive. Her TLI was <1.0 and her Cobalamin at 490. No antibiotics were prescribed. PancreaPowerder Plus Enzymes were prescribed, but Lady didn't tolerate it very well. I have ordered a sample of enzymediane 6x, but I do prefer to give her something more natural. I purchased beef pancreas and I want to make sure that I will be giving her the proper amount.

She currently weighs just under 17 lbs., and to be honest, she really doesn't need to gain weight. Is 2 oz of beef pancreas per day sufficient? Any and all advice is so very welcomed and I am so, so grateful for everyone here!!

Tuckaboo.
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by Tuckaboo. » 08 Jan 2020, 20:08

Hi there. Wow, your poor pup has been through a lot. I'm glad she has made some progress, and I'm sorry I do not have the answer to your beef pancreas question. Early last spring, before I found out about Diane's Enzymes, I realized I couldn't possibly afford the enzymes from the vet. I set out to find a connection to a slaughterhouse, looking for pig pancreas, and I came to believe it would be hard to know how much to feed my boy, because each pancreas might have a different level of enzymes. Somebody with more knowledge that I have will jump in soon with some guidance, I am sure. I just wanted to say hi, and welcome.---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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jilbert57
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by jilbert57 » 08 Jan 2020, 21:03

I have never used fresh pancreas. This is from our site:

:FEEDING RAW PANCREAS: If you would like to try using raw pancreas; fresh beef, pork or lamb pancreas are recommended. Raw BEEF Pancreas is available for purchase in the USA at http://www.hare-today.com/ or http://www.greentripe.com/ , and new resource as of 2012 on the USA eastern coast is http://www.greencuisine4pets.com/products.htm . There is also an amazing selection of raw pancreas at: https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/ . As of 2013 there is a raw bovine, porcine & ovine distributor, “BPOPARTS LLC” in Utah email at: BPOPARTSRF@gmail.com , or if you are in the U.K. http://rawtogo.co.uk/ . One to three or four ounces of raw pancreas can replace one teaspoon of pancreatic extract. Raw pancreas may be frozen in cubes for future use and thawed naturally, but never heat on the stove or in the microwave.

If possible beef or lamb raw pancreas is recommended over pork pancreas because of the “possibility” of the transmission of pseudorabies, although rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorabies

Also… raw pancreas is not all the same. Each and every gland has a different potency of enzymes. This is not just species to species. The potency can vary from one farm animal to another farm animal as well. If you use 1 ounce of raw pancreas with the batch you are currently using the next batch may need to be tweaked. Fresh pancreas has a shelf life (in the freezer) of up to 3 months."

What food are you currently feeding? We recommend a grain free with 4% or less fiber.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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LadysAma
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by LadysAma » 09 Jan 2020, 11:37

Thank you for the replies and welcome! :) I purchased the beef pancreas through GreenTripe.com. I am currently feeding Lady Hill's Prescription Diet Gastrointestinal Biome kibble, which has 7.2% of crude fiber. Looks like I may need to make some changes. Her vet recommended Royal Canin Low Fat kibble, but I didn't want to introduce too many changes at once. I'm looking at Snuggles Chicken & Rice Blend from My Perfect Pet Food. It contains 1% max crude fiber. Her vet isn't recommending B12, since she is in range, however, through my reading on this website, it appears that I should be supplementing Lady with B12 with intrinsic factor to keep her levels above 600. I hope my assumption is correct. I feel like I should I also be supplementing Lady with coconut oil (for her fur, which is thinning out rapidly) and slippery elm (for bacterial overgrowth). Her folate level was over 24.0, but when I questioned the vet, he said I didn't need to worry. I worry all day, every day. Which is why I'm so over the moon in finding this website and being a part of this community - so thank you all again!!

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jilbert57
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by jilbert57 » 09 Jan 2020, 12:50

Does Snuggles make a grain free diet ? EPI pups tend to do better without grains (they cut down on the efficacy of the enzymes) and also where legumes are not a ingredient high on the list.

You are correct the B12 level needs to be raised, and the capsules you mentioned are a very good way to raise the level.

You might hold off on the coconut oil until your pup is stable. How long has he been on enzymes? Sometimes it is suggested to hold off and see if the enzymes get the SID taken care of. The slippery elm is good. Someone else may chime in with yay or nay on starting it now.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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LadysAma
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My name: Karina

Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by LadysAma » 09 Jan 2020, 13:28

I've looked at their website and, yes, they do make grain-free food. I will look at those and make sure that the fiber content is below 4%.

Lady started enzymes on January 1st, but stopped on January 3rd because of intolerance. Vet prescribed new enzymes, but I should be receiving enzymesdiane tomorrow. In the meantime, she loves her beef pancreas.

Thank you, Jill, for your responses! Lots to learn!

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Madelon
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by Madelon » 09 Jan 2020, 20:52

Hi Karina - welcome to you and your cutie pie lady. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reach out to our Founder and Director of Research, Olesia Kennedy - her EPI dog was also diagnosed with IMHA several years ago and she almost lost her - thankfully Olesia is an expert at research and because she researched things she was able to save and stabilize her dog - her email address is Olesia.kennedy@gmail.com.

We have observed over the years that the little ones, like your lady, tend to do better with methylcobalamin instead of cyanocobalamin. The pills we recommend which seems to work for most EPI dogs is WonderLabs Pet Factor B12. In addition to having methylcobalamin they have instrinsic factor which helps with B12 absorption. HOWEVER, when you get the pills you will want to open it up, divide into four equal parts and give lady one of those equal parts a day - so 1/4 of a pill a day. Unfortunately your vet is incorrect, and EPI dogs need their B12 on the high side of normal 600+ and supplementing is for life as they can't maintain B12 on their own.

Please do not give coconut or slippery elm at this time - especially not until you talk to Olesia. With EPI you want to make only one change at a time and wait 5 days to see if the change works or not.

With regard to the enzymes, glad you are getting EnzymeDiane - raw pancreas has worked for some but it's so hard to get the dosage exactly right because as Pam said the levels vary from one pancreas to another. When you get the powder enzymes, start off with 1 teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix with a little luke warm water, add food and mix and sit for 20-30 minutes before serving.

Glad you are thinking about switching foods as the fiber at over 7% is likely not going to work well. We recommend grain free (grains can interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes) with 4% fiber or less and avoid peas and legumes. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog should be but in smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day.

As for the Folate - high folate is an indication of SID - high folate along with gas, burping, diarrhea, eating poop, tummy rumbling is usually diagnosed as SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) and a 45 day course of Tylan is recommended, HOWEVER, when first diagnosed we recommend giving the proper dose of enzymes, B12 and food two weeks to see if the gut will correct itself before using antibiotics.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and everything that results so you know what works and what doesn't. I will also let Olesia know you are here so she can chime in here. Hang in there - we are here with you!
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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Madelon
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by Madelon » 09 Jan 2020, 21:22

Karina - I just spoke to Olesia and made her aware of your post here. She is on her way home and has a few things to do but said she will hop on here and chime in to try and help - this way the information will be here to help others in the future that have the same diagnosis :) . Hang in there and know that we are holding you up from afar.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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Olesia711
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Jan 2020, 00:07

Karina,

This is Olesia. My EPI gal was diagnosed with EPI 13 years ago and 7 years ago developed IMHA (and Diabetes and Low Thyroid)... and 11 years ago she developed central brain vestibular disease . Believe it or not, she survived it all and she is now 14+1/2 years old, mostly deaf and blind, and slowing down, but still a very happy dog!

Okay.... i am going to jump around a bit here.... you mentioned she was diagnosed with IMHA. Is her hermatocrit (HCT) in a good range now (upper 30's low 40's)??? Is she on a high dose of Prednisone and or Cyclosporine? If yes, i am guessing they have her on sucralfate.... if not, you will want to start giving her Slippery elm powder to avoid any stomach bleeds from the high dose drugs needed to control the IMHA.

Regarding EPI... glad to hear that she likes the raw pancreas.... BUT.... when the enzymes come in from EnzymeDiane, because she has or is now in remission with IMHA, you will want to feed her the enzyme powder vs. the raw .... for safety sake. IMHA can be triggered idiopathically... so you don't want to take any chances... ditto for using any harsh chemical around her and no more heart worm meds... with an IMHA survivor.

With EPI, the raw pancreas is good and well tolerated by many EPI dogs.... BUT... as mentioned above... each pancreas organ can vary in enzyme potency so it is much better to give the powdered enzymes as they are a stable source.

In addition to having to be careful because she is an IMHA survivor and to give to protect against stomach bleed with an IMHA dog.... with EPI we often give Slippery Elm first instead of reaching for antibiotics to help with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which all EPI dogs have to one degree or another.
I noticed you mentioned her Folate is 24.... poor Lady's SID (which is present in all EPI dogs) is out of control. SO this is another reason why you should start giving Slippery Elm..... as not only is Slippery Elm a mucilage, it also has prebiotic properties.. and often helps with SID... IF the Slippery Elm doesn;t do enough to get the SID under good controll... then yes, you will need to talk to your vet about putting Lady on antibiotics and we strongly recommend trying Tylan first over Metronidazole. But start with the SLippery ELm powder first... this too can be purchased from WOnderlabs.They started carrying it for EPI dogs at our request! https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K97024
I would start Lady on 1/8 of a teaspoon of the SLippery Elm for her SID issue....... if it helps but not enough after 3 to 5 days... then i would slightly increase the amount, but not by too much. If after a few weeks, this still has not improved enough, and she has grumbling in her tummy, gas, burping, yellowish looking pudding stools... then ask for Tylan antibiotic. 45 days twice a day.


Also, as mentioned above ... you definitely want to avoid foods with too much lentils or legumes in the food....when first starting to treat an EPI dog, another issue is initially to avoid a food with too much fiber content in it because it may interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere from 0% to 50% ... we just never know how much from one animal to the next. This is why we suggest low fiber (grain free food) 4% and often even less than 4% fiber content in a diet works better for "most" of these dogs" ... once your dog is stable... then you can try increasing the fiber content or try a food with a little rice if you want and see how it goes... however, i must warn you, many, many EPI dogs cannot hand food with grain.. Sometimes, especially with a small dog, you can cook your own with natural ingredients like fresh meat, skinned and defatted and sweet potato and you can add (depending on tolerance) cottage cheese, kale, squash, and even an egg 3 days a week, and some organ meats and high quality vitamins and minerals that your vet recommends.. YOur vet is not too off the mark with the law fat meal....technically EPI dogs can handle normal amounts of the right kind of fat just like any other dog, once they are receiving enzymes... but if your little baby tends towards being "chunky" the a lower fat food might be okay.

I personally would hold off on the coconut oil for now... wait until your pup is stable which means poop is normal for about a month. Then you can try introducing coconut oil.

Regarding the B12... as mentioned in the posts above.... YES!!!! your dog needs B12. EPI is a chronic condition... and the B12 level needs to be upper mid range... somewhere in 500 to 600's.... higher is even better. IIn the end, all EPI dogs have to take B12. EPI dogs do NOT do well with an average B12 level cause their levels will plummet.

Also with small dogs (and i do not know why this happens) many of them do not do as well as expected on the cyanocobalamin B12.... and they do much better on Methylcobobalamin B12)... so to hedge your bets, you probably will want to start with WOnderlabs Pet Factor b12 pills https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 these capsules are 1000 mcg B12 so you will have to break one of these capsules open, spread the powder on a piece of paper, form a rectangle, split the rectangle in half and give Lady one half once a day.....

I am sure you have more questions, but i hope the suggestions that i and others have given you is a good start.

Hope i didn't make too many typos.... typing this late at night...

I'll check in with you tomorrow sometime............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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LadysAma
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Re: How much Beef Pancreas?

Post by LadysAma » 10 Jan 2020, 11:10

Madelon and Olesia - THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!

I have been stressing out over this and I now feel that I can do this and that is only because of your advice. I truly cannot thank you enough!

Lady is in remission for both IMHA and IMTP. After receiving vincristine and thankfully responding to the treatment, Lady was initially prescribed 15mg of Prednisolone once a day along with 50 mg of Cyclosporine. I took her every other week for CBC blood work and as her numbers maintained, she was gradually weaned off of the Prednisolone (last dosage was in November) and then gradually weaned off of the Cyclosporine (last dosage was Jan. 7th). So far she is in remission and hopefully she will stay in remission. From her last bloodwork, Lady's HCT is 52 and Platelet count is 268.

I had NO IDEA - ZERO, ZILCH about how the medications could have affected her tummy. I did ask the vet how the medications were going to affect her liver, but didn't think about the stomach :(

I've ordered the Slippery Elm and the PET Factor B-12 with Intrinsic Factor from Wonderlabs and will follow your suggestion on how to administer it to her.

I should be receiving the Enzymes Diane today and will start her on that versus the beef pancreas. I certainly would not want to give Lady anything that would trigger her IMHA!!

I will also hold off of the coconut oil until she is stable on the enzymes.

Regarding her food, I just started her on Knight's Gently Cooked Beef Grain Free Blend from My Perfect Pet. It has a max crude fiber content of 1.8%.

I am so very grateful for this website, its forum, and more importantly for all of you!!! I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have this valuable information from you all! Lady's vet is good, but I suspect that he doesn't have all of this information.

My only question at this point would be on how to incubate. I know that I should incubate for 20-30 minutes. Is it possible to incubate for a longer period of time? I'm wondering if I could prep her meals the night before?

again - THANK YOU!!!!

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