My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
shepherdmom31
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
Pet name: Idgie

My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by shepherdmom31 » 12 Jan 2020, 15:26

My 2 year old German shepherd Idgie was diagnosed with EPI about 1.5 months ago. She has been on the enzyme replacement powder since her diagnosis but her stools have yet to return to normal. She still has liquid greasy stools and is always trying to eat them.

Per our vets instructions we add 1 tsp of enzyme powder to a few spoonfuls of wet food and let it sit 20 minutes. We feed her the wet food and then proceed to give her her 3 cups of dry Royal Canin German shepherd food. We have taken her to the vet several times because her stools are still liquid and the vet has no suggestions as she seems like a healthy dog. After doing some research all I can think to try is giving more enzymes per meal and adding them directly to some moistened dry food.

Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
-a stressed out dog mom

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 166
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by Tuckaboo. » 12 Jan 2020, 16:09

Hi there. Oh dear, I am so sorry. You describe exactly everything my Tucker was doing at the start. Please give a bit more information...What enzymes are you using? Is he taking anything else? Here is what works for my boy, and he is doing well after sticking to this routine. 1 teaspoon enzymes per 1 cup of food (so, if he is eating 3 cups, he should have 3 teaspoons of some enzymes, but you'll need to let us know more about the enzymes, ok?), 1 capsule Wonderlab B12 w/intrinsic factor(amazon), and 1/4 teaspoon of Tylan, an antibiotic that is sometimes used longterm because it treats the small intestinal dysbiosis that is usually present with EPI, and it can be tolerated because it is very specific to where it works in the body. The enzymes are added to the entire meal, which is then wet with room temp water, and the entire bowl is marinated for 20-30 minutes. I also add the B12 and Tylan at the same time. I hope I'm not confusing you, but I wanted to cheer you up & let you know it's going to be alright. The administrators will be on here before you know it, and they will help you straighten things out. Also, you will get info about buying top quality enzymes at a greatly reduced price. Hang in there, you are not alone---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has not had a blood test for EPI, per my vet's advice. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and the difference was dramatic. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 teaspoon/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 10 pounds(was on his way to chunky monkey status, so his portion has been reduced), and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 166
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by Tuckaboo. » 12 Jan 2020, 16:14

PLEASE don't just go ahead & increase the enzymes until the administrators have figured out what kind you are using, OK?---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has not had a blood test for EPI, per my vet's advice. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and the difference was dramatic. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 teaspoon/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 10 pounds(was on his way to chunky monkey status, so his portion has been reduced), and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 791
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by jilbert57 » 12 Jan 2020, 17:16

Hi stressed out dog mom, what is your name?
Pam has given you some good advice. Please let us know what enzymes you are using.

Thanks

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

shepherdmom31
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
Pet name: Idgie

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by shepherdmom31 » 12 Jan 2020, 17:50

Thanks for the quick reply! She is currently taking Patterson veterinary Zypatt Powder (pancreatic enzyme concentrate - ordered by our vet) and a Proviable DC probiotic capsule (1/day) that was suggested by our vet.

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 791
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by jilbert57 » 12 Jan 2020, 18:05

Thanks for posting enzyme brand. This powder is dosed by.amount of food. 1 level teaspoon of enzyme per 1 cup dry kibble, plus tad more for the canned food. Mix it up, add tepid water, mix and incubate 20 mins. Stir before serving.

The Royal canin does contain grains at some point you might want a grainfree food with fiber 3.5% or under. Also limit potatoes, peas and lentils .

Did your vet test B12 or folate?

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

shepherdmom31
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
Pet name: Idgie

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by shepherdmom31 » 12 Jan 2020, 21:59

Thanks for the help guys. I increased the amount of powder to 1 tsp/cup of food and mixed it in with her food and some warm water and let it sit for 25 minutes. Hopefully this will help her!

Yes my vet tested for B12 and folate. Her B12 was at a normal level 502ng/L

Her folate was higher than the normal range. 29.2ug/L. Idgie was prescribed metronidazole and the vet recommended continuing the probiotic to help combat the dysbiosis.

What is your guys experience with dogs with a high folate level? I just assumed this issue would resolve itself once the EPI was addressed but maybe that is not the case.

-Alyssa

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 166
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by Tuckaboo. » 13 Jan 2020, 04:32

Alyssa, we tried two different expensive probiotics, and ultimately had to drop them because they both gave Tucker diarrhea. I think some others have had the same experience.---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has not had a blood test for EPI, per my vet's advice. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and the difference was dramatic. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 teaspoon/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 10 pounds(was on his way to chunky monkey status, so his portion has been reduced), and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

User avatar
Madelon
President
Posts: 725
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by Madelon » 13 Jan 2020, 20:13

Hi and welcome to our EPI family. I looked up your enzymes but could not find the actual amounts of lipase, protease and amalyse - can you post on here what the amounts are on the bottle? Just want to make sure they are strong enough.

There are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI:

ENZYMES: Recommended dose is 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix in a little luke warm water, then mix in kibble and let sit 20-30 minutes before serving. Most of us use EnzymeDiane Pancreatin 6x as it's a lot less expensive than the prescription enzymes from the vet - no prescription needed and shipped directly to your house.

B12: EPI dogs need their B12 on the high side of normal 600+ and supplementing is for life with these dogs. If your dog's B12 was 500 at diagnosis a year and a half ago then it's probably even lower now if you haven't been supplementing. You can either do shots or the WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills. Low B12 will affect appetite, mood, weight, poop, etc.

ANTIBIOTICS: If dealing with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) we recommend a 45 day course of Tylan, given how long your dog has likely been dealing with SID I highly recommend starting a course of Tylan - after 45 days slowly wean off

FOOD; We recommend grain free with 4% fiber or less and avoid or limit peas and legumes. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog should be not the current weight but feed in smaller more frequent meals throughout the day.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and the resulting poop so you know what work and what doesn't. And don't worry we will be here to help guide you along the way
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

shepherdmom31
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
Pet name: Idgie

Re: My shepherd still has diarrhea - need suggestions

Post by shepherdmom31 » 15 Jan 2020, 09:03

The concentrations of enzymes are Lipase: 71,400 USP, Protease: 388,000 ISP, and Amylase: 460,000

For the last 5 feedings I have been giving her 1 tsp/cup of food. Which is 3 per feeding. And then adding warm water to the food and letting the food enzyme water mixture sit for 30 minutes. Idgie’s poop was better the next day. So good that I would say it’s almost normal again.

This seemed to help her a lot, but last night she did not want to finish all of her food which is very unusual. and the same this happened this morning. I took a look at her mouth and she has developed some sores on the inside of her lips and the outside of her snout just under her nose.

I’m not sure what to do now. I cannot give her increased enzyme as that is hurting her. Maybe the increased amount was not what is helping. Maybe it is the Way I am now preparing her food now???

Tonight all I can think is to try less enzyme with the same preparation method (enzyme+food+water 30 min incubation)

What do you guys think I should do??

Alyssa

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests