New to EPI and need some guidance

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Jean
Staff
Posts: 1046
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Jean » 11 Feb 2020, 09:30

thanks for your input Eleanor, its all about learning and sharing

its really shoutingly obvious that fibre seems to adversely affect them , they just cannot cope, funnily enough as Kara became older we had less and less issues with foods, everything else hit the ground, but not food

please feel free to share ANYTHING on our pages with your vets, the research is acknowleged everywhere, and our main researcher Olesia has the ear of many top people
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Patsy
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Posts: 143
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Patsy » 11 Feb 2020, 09:52

Something seems odd to me. Have you had a fasting Tli test for epi . They should give you a score. I’m just asking about the poo colour. All the boxers I’ve known have had gut problems. The original yellow diarrhoea could be infection. But you’ve mentioned black, which my dog never achieved in eight years. Often , black is connected to bleeding, or in my non epi cocker, a kidney issue.
I think the immediate action needed is to get on antibiotics, whatever the cause.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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Madelon
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Posts: 987
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Madelon » 11 Feb 2020, 14:23

Thank you Patsy for mentioning the black poop - I too was concerned when I read that. If you could post the TLI, B12 and Folate score from original diagnosis that would greatly help us in offering suggestions. When they ran the TLI test they should have also tested B12 and Folate. What B12 are you giving and how much? If your vet will not give you a prescription for Tylan, you could try Slippery Elm Bark Powder https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Mandy
Member
Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Arizona
Pet name: Shazam
My name: Mandy

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Mandy » 11 Feb 2020, 23:16

Thank you everyone,
Hes stools are slowly returning to normal. I have added a little more water to his food and enzymes. He is on B12 we are just having to move him off the injections (due to some trauma from the past for my 8 yr old) Shazam has some mouth sores and i am rinsing his mouth after meals and that seems to be helping as well as wiping his face after he eats too. Again i do believe that he was probably born with EPI and has never had treatment for it. He is only 2 and someone put lots of training into him because he is amazing! A one in a million find at the pound. I thought the exact thing when the vet told pumpkin, i even said isnt that for constipation? I have not given him any. I did ask about bananas. its what you use for babies with diarrhea, she said i could try some mashed banana. I think it may have been caused by the increase in enzymes that she suggested i use, and i know that its all about his tummy and body telling me what he needs. His TLI was <1 and she wants to wait to run anymore tests at this time, so i have no clue what is B12 levels are at or anything else for that matter. We have about 6 more weeks before we go back for another visit. I will be asking for a CBC at that visit. He has been on the enzymes for 9 days now and the change is amazing, i see the improvement everyday. I was very frustrated for him with the black tar looking poop. Im not sure what caused it other than maybe than i was also using a canned dog food mixed in with his food and the enzymes. I am also going to be changing his dry dog food, Ill be making the switch to Taste of the Wild. My douge de bordeaux lived her entire life on it and she had grain problems too but did wonderful on it once i got her going on it. You are all wonderful for all the help and i will be keeping a very close eye on his poops and the changes to his foods. Also thank you for the slippery elm info! Future arsenal for any problems.

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Patsy
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Posts: 143
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Patsy » 12 Feb 2020, 08:05

Well done for coping so calmly, most of us have been in tears half the time..
Your vet is very frustrating, it would be better to get the four cornerstones that Jill and Jean have described fully, all in place together. Without a test the B12 will pick up with your regime, but without an antibiotic, you are fighting an inflamed, possibly bleeding gut, which is gassy and uncomfortable. My epi dog did the worlds worst smelly farts when she had sibo.
You should get the the full blood panel done asp, to be sure that the liver and kidney levels are right. It’s hard when you don’t have his history. Most dogs don’t complain. , my latest rescue was young and lively, but needed nearly all his teeth out and had pneumonia.
Keep a journal of what food and medicines go in, and what poo results happen..
If I was you, I would see the vet in a weeks time, rather than six.
Lastly, what was his weight when you started, and is it improving? The enzymes make the food taste very different, and many of us disguise it with fish or cream cheese, and spoon feed!
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

Mandy
Member
Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Arizona
Pet name: Shazam
My name: Mandy

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Mandy » 12 Feb 2020, 22:47

Well, we now have mouth sores....I dont just mean a little sore i mean this dog was bleeding from his mouth. I rinsed his mouth with some warm water and it stopped almost immediately. The only thing i can think to do to help him recover even a little is to stop the enzymes for a couple of days and/or to reintroduce them in much smaller amounts. I am willing to try anything for this poor guy, i feel like im failing him at every turn at this moment. Poor baby had bad bubble gut and i gave him a little pepto to just help calm his tummy, he ate 1 of the tabs and is resting now, but i dont know if this is okay for his tummy with the enzymes. I read a little about green tripe, anyone here have any experience with it? Hes showing signs of allergy problems with the new enzymes. (licking his feet itching his ears and chewing his paws) Im happy with his weight change and energy changes too, but im beginning to wonder if im torturing him by trying to fix his problems. I feel like im doing more harm than good. Or is there something more wrong with him that needs more vet care than i can even fathom? I read an article that said reducing the enzymes can help with the mouth/gum bleed, but what to do for the allergy? His food HAS to be changed, its got boar in it and he was itching before we got the diagnosis and it seemed to stop for a bit. But here we go again. Ill be picking up Tatse of the WIld for him tomorrow after work. (high prairie canine) it seem like the best alternative here. But still need the enzymes. Any suggestions?

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Patsy
Member
Posts: 143
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Patsy » 13 Feb 2020, 07:42

The B12 injections for dogs are done by members at home as a quick prick into a ‘tent’ of skin on the back, not into muscle. It shouldn’t be traumatic. The worst bit is having to go to the clinic.
Anyway, tablets should work.
Mouth sores.....dogs with floppy cheeks and jowls, including my springer spaniel, do seem to retain a lot of saliva, which with enzymes is caustic. Well tried methods include squirting water in with a turkey baster, wiping with a flannel. I failed at these methods. I put Vaseline on her nose to protect it. But as she would rather starve than eat enzymes, I used enzyme capsules or coated tablets. I used them forever.
I am in the UK, where we can buy at least three types for dogs. In other countries you can buy Creon. Same stuff, more expensive. I’m sure more folks will advise you on that.
The paw licking could be your allergy, but is almost certainly also because he has a horrible taste in his mouth from enzymes, and he is trying to get rid of it.
Please get the vet to prescribe antibiotics, bubble gut is far too nice a description for sibo/Sid, which can cause pain and ulceration.
Don’t despair, so long as the poop is improving the dog is getting nourishment at last. The other side effects aren’t pleasant, but they won’t kill him.
The advice to everyone is to be patient, ( except with vets).
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 310
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Tuckaboo. » 14 Feb 2020, 17:22

Oh no! I have read a couple of ideas on this forum, for addressing mouth sores. One is to hold out a few pieces of kibble & put them into a bowl of water, for him to have at the end of a meal. Another one is to put some ice cubes into a bowl of water, following his meal. I wonder if a little squirt bottle with water for his gums would help. So everything else is going well?---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Mandy
Member
Posts: 12
Country: United States
State: Arizona
Pet name: Shazam
My name: Mandy

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Mandy » 14 Feb 2020, 23:04

Pam,
Yes, for the moment. We seem to have found a little relief for him with a few ideas i stole from raising my kids. So for we finally have brown formed poop again. (never thought id be happy about poop) More to come as i find what works.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 310
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New to EPI and need some guidance

Post by Tuckaboo. » 15 Feb 2020, 09:37

What is helping the mouth sores? When you mentioned your kids, you reminded me of something I learned when my daughter had mono. The sore throat is excrutiating, and somebody told me about magic mouthwash---it's 1/2 liquid benadryl + 1/2 mylanta, mixed & gargled. It truly is magical. If the ingredients are safe for dogs, I wonder if that would provide some relief.
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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