Poop Question

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Rapids77
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: Wisconsin
Pet name: Blu
My name: Andrea

Poop Question

Post by Rapids77 » 24 Jun 2020, 20:21

Hi all,

Yet another question! So we're 5.5 days in with the enzymes (1 tsp /cup of food), B12 (two capsules sprinkled over afternoon feeding) and new Food (Dog Sport Elite - Herding 4.5-6 cups per day depending on how much he'll actually eat spaced over 3-4 meals). And only 3 days in with Tylosin (1/4 tsp twice each day).

Blu's poo is definitely better quality (same as the pics I shared yesterday...around a 5 and much darker, not bright yellow). BUT...he's still going SOOO much every day. He poops at least 5 times a day, sometimes 6 or more. Trying to channel my inner patience here but just wondering if this is normal and I need to give it much more time yet before I see the quantity of poop slow? Or if I should be worried about a secondary issue at this point and trying to perhaps switch foods already or mix up something else in the "Big 4" categories (B12, Tylosin, Food and Enzymes) or start looking to test for something else in addition to the EPI? Thanks guys!

-A & B

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1224
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Poop Question

Post by Olesia711 » 24 Jun 2020, 23:55

Image

Okay... all joking aside.... don't worry yet about him going about 5 times a day... the frequency sometimes takes some time.

#5 is definitely in the right direction... and although i suspect that you probably still need to tweak something (most likely the food)....BUT i would suggest that you stay the course for a few more days..... give it at another 2 or 3 days before you make any change..

IF still no more improvement..... THEN i would like to suggest that you try only one change (for now).... add some slippery elm powder to his meals and watch the poos for another 3 days...record/take pics of the poop.

a. If Slippery Elm it improves the poo somewhat, then that would indicate the the food is not optimal for him and something about one or some of the ingredients needs to be adjusted. (we'll work with you on this)

b. if there is no improvement whatsoever, then that might indicate that he needs to be on a hydrolyzed food after all- -as he may have a food sensitivity, however, the prescription food you previously had him on wasn't the right one for him. in which case, i would suggest specifically Royal Canine "Ultamino" hydrolyzed food..... this particular brand seems to work better than the other hydrolyzed foods with our EPI dogs...........
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Rapids77
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: Wisconsin
Pet name: Blu
My name: Andrea

Re: Poop Question

Post by Rapids77 » 25 Jun 2020, 16:54

Yes, it's true - patience is not one of my stronger qualities :D

Great guidance and it all makes sense, just one (or two..haha!) follow-up question(s) on the Slippery Elm. Am I looking for an improvement in the firmness of his poop or in the amount of poop (i.e a reduction in the times he poops each day) as I start to administer the slippery elm?

I've contemplated trying to add more enzymes or more water or longer incubation period but I don't want to change too many things at once and then not know which one, if any, helped with the improvement.

Also, from your resources page, it looks like giving SE in yogurt with water mixed in works well. Any particular kind of yogurt and do you guys recommend mixing that up and using it as a topper on the enzyme soaked kibble or just giving the SE/yogurt concoction just prior to the meal? Thanks much - you guys are such a wealth of knowledge!

Andrea

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1224
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Poop Question

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Jun 2020, 19:48

try the Slippery Elm first.... and what you will be looking for is the firming up of the poo.... which may (or may not) also include less frequency....

If this helps... then i suspect it is something about the food that is not optimal and THEN what you might want to try next (before tweaking the food) is up the enzymes dosage a bit.... BUT.... give each change at the minimum 3 to 5 days................

And just so you know... patience is not my strong suit either.... but with these dogs... *sigh*..... that what you need a big dose of :lol: when trying to find the right balance of things!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
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Posts: 924
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Poop Question

Post by Madelon » 26 Jun 2020, 22:39

Ahhhh patience - not my strong suit either - TRUST ME!!! I have broken the golden rule of only 1 change at a time more than once and it has cost me LOL LOL.

I would not mix the slippery elm in with the yougart as you don't know if your dog can tolerate the yogart. Just mix the SE in with a tablespoon or two of luke warm water. I will tell you that some EPI dogs take only two days to see changes and some take two weeks. My boy is one that will take 2-3 weeks for me to be able to really tell if the change is working. As long as you are seeing some improvement I would stay the course.

If you're giving two capsules of B12 I would split them and give one in the am and one in the pm - I have no idea if this makes any difference or not and probably doesn't but I'm not a fan of giving a lot of anything at one time. My 100lb German Shepherd gets two B12 pills a day but I give one in the am and one in the pm.

Don't forget to keep a detailed log and poop picture always help to keep track of the differences :)
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Rapids77
Member
Posts: 17
Country: United States
State: Wisconsin
Pet name: Blu
My name: Andrea

Re: Poop Question

Post by Rapids77 » 26 Jun 2020, 23:53

Hi Madelon - thanks for the guidance. And can I say...im slightly jealous of Your 100lb German shepherd. Blu is still hovering right around 50 and hasn’t gained much this week. I’m sure Doc has had quite the journey but I’m so excited to NOT SEE BONES everywhere. These poor pups.

I should have the SE any day now. Would you suggest just mixing with water and adding right into the food?

I do keep a daily log and have a picture folder full of poop (my kids think it’s hysterical). His poop has gotten substantially better - pretty much a 4 now. But there’s SOOOO much of it. He’s getting 5-6 cups of the same food you’re feeding so maybe it’s just too much food?? I do know I’d like to see him retain more of it and poop less, 5-6+ piles of poops a day makes me concerned the enzymes aren’t working. But then there’s that patience thing!

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Jean
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Posts: 966
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Poop Question

Post by Jean » 27 Jun 2020, 08:15

Hi

I will tell you a story

My Kara was 14 months old when she developed EPI she was 39 pounds at her worst, and I had to put a t shirt on her as people where threatening to report me as she was a skeleton
6
I took no pictures as I didnt think she would make it, we were referred Liverpool University small animal hospital under the care of the most amazing man I have ever met

And my vet Uncle Ian had dealt with EPI since the 80's she had to have b12 injections every other day as she couldnt hold it she had that for life once monthly, supplemented with capsules from the Uk

Anyway, she was fed 5 times a day all enzymed, she was on capsules 60 for£60 so they lasted a few days as she had 5 capsules per meal

As for pooing, it just flew out if her, I had to sleep downstairs with her so I could have the back door open ! She had no control at all , it improved over a few days and when Tylan was added she turned a corner

I found this group when it was still in its infancy, and realised you are not alone, at that time there was only one person from UK and she became a true friend

It took us a while to realise Kara couldnt tolerate white fish and chicken in dog food, so we then realised she trier needed grain freej

My two other friends from the UK trialled another enzyme, and the rest is history, she went up to 90 pounds over a year, and stayed that way until we lost her May 2019 ,stable to the end, we lost her to DM

This group was my lifeline, and I have made so many friends along the way, one I spend holidays with, and I am proud to be the Forum Director

Please keep your diary

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Madelon
President
Posts: 924
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Poop Question

Post by Madelon » 28 Jun 2020, 10:13

Yes - mix the SE with a tablespoon or two of water and put directly on the food just before serving. I'm assuming you're splitting the food up into 3 or 4 meals? I don't recommend feeding more than 2.5 cups of food at a time. It also takes a little bit for their B12 level to come up which can affect everything. Let us know how it goes once you get the slippery elm and try it. If it doesn't help much, then I would do a 45 day course of Tylan antibiotics - you'll need to get a prescription from your vet. Here's the link to dosing https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ It's bitter tasting so you may need to hide it a dollop of cream cheese or something - I was able to just stir in my boy's food - he'll eat anything LOL. If after two weeks on Tylan you still don't see improvement then we will look at changing food - it could be it's too much fat or too much fiber.

Remember as long as you are not losing weight you're headed in the right direction - it just takes a little patience and detective work to figure out exactly the right combination of things for your dog :)
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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