Amount of Enzymes

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TsBs
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Pet name: Katniss Everdeen
My name: Tara

Amount of Enzymes

Post by TsBs » 28 Jun 2020, 12:31

Hello :)

I'm new here and we have just begun our journey.

Our 3 yr old female GSD Crs ...named Katniss Everdeen, was diagnosed with EPI on June 2nd . This on top of her earlier diagnosis in April of eosinophilic gastroenteritis.
For that we have her on Royal Canin Anallergenic.

For her EPI she is taking enzymes, Tylosin for another few weeks and B12 injections once a week.

I understand that we can tell if there are not enough enzymes by her poop... there is definitely a noticeable difference already!...however I am wondering if there are signs of too much enzymes?
Sorry if this is a repeat question. I couldn't find anything with the words I was using in the search box.

She was on Pank-AId which the Vet indicated it was 1.5 tsp on her kibble (regardless of how much kibble).
We have recently discovered EnzymeDiane(Yay!) and I see that is 1.5 tsp. per cup of food.
I am fearful of giving her too much in my efforts to find the right amount for her.

Also, thank you so much for the existence of the Forum. I have already read a lot of great info here and feel somewhat anchored now as opposed to feeling completely out at sea with this diagnosis.

Tara S. - Coldwater, Ontario, Canada

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Jean
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by Jean » 28 Jun 2020, 13:10

Welcome from the UK


Firstly, as far as I know its 1 teaspoon of Diane's enzymes to 1 cup of food which I understand is 8 ounces, I would normally advise against prescription food but it would seem necessary

The advice is if there has been a weight loss feed 50% over and above what the bag of food recommends for the the weight they SHOULD be, fed over several meals, all enzymed, We fed my Kara 5 meals a day and a small meal if scrambled egg and mashed potato before bed , it's a long time till breakfast

What level of Tylan are you giving , and how often ? Its weight dosed and recommended twice daily 12 hours ish apart

They have stopped the production of Pank Aid in Canada, due to government restrictions, so it's good you found Diane

There us a lot to learn , and patience is the biggie, there is a problem with too much enzyme as with too little, the rule of thumb is 1 teaspoon to 1 cup of food

Can I ask was there any discussion if b12 supplementation ?

Keep a log or diary it will be a lifeline to you and the vet

This forum was my lifeline from 2010, and still is as forum director, and you have a star to steer you by on troubled water

Please ask away

Jeanxx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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TsBs
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Pet name: Katniss Everdeen
My name: Tara

Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by TsBs » 28 Jun 2020, 16:32

Hi Jean ...and thank you for your response.

Once we get the EPI under control the Vet advised we might be able to revisit the food choice.
The prescription food is working for her Gastroenteritis so we don't want to change anything to effect that right now.

We have increased her food intake by 50% and give her 3 meals a day rather then the usual 2.

She is on 400mg capsules of Tylan.
The Vet started her at 3 pills a day for 2 weeks and then 2 pills a day for 2 weeks.

She is on .1ml of B12 injection once a week.

What would the signs be if she were to get too much enzymes?

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Shirl D.
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by Shirl D. » 28 Jun 2020, 22:32

Hi Tara, Welcome to the forum!
The pancreatin from Enzyme Diane should be started at a ratio of 1 teaspoon per 1 cup of kibble (it's a little less for raw or canned). Too much enzymes can cause diarrhea just like too little enzymes, so there's no clear cut way to know. The starting 1:1 ratio works pretty well for most dogs. Once you see how that goes for a few days, you can adjust the amount from there. We can help walk you through tweaking as needed. Don't worry too much about giving too much enzymes. As I said, she might get diarrhea, but she can't overdose or have any horrible adverse reactions if you stick with the 1:1 ratio.
The tylan is dosed by weight. There is a chart on this page: https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ The recommendation is to continue the tylan for 45 days. Most dogs need this to get the SID under control.
It's good she's on B12 injections, also. She will need to continue to have B12 supplemented for life (the majority of EPI dogs need this). You can do this by injection, or you can use an oral B12 with intrinsic factor.
Keep us posted as to how she's doing!

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TsBs
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My name: Tara

Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by TsBs » 01 Jul 2020, 16:57

Thanks Shirl ....you have alleviated my concern about "overdose" by enzyme.
We ordered the 8x so started her at 3/4tsp. per cup.

We've just finished switching her from Pank-Aid to Diane's ...so far so good.
I did a poop celebration in the back yard, praising her on its awesomeness yesterday morning :)

There was more Tylan in the bottle then the required dosage so I will keep her on it until it is empty which will be close to 45 days worth.
The dose amount compared to the chart is good.
When the SID is gone, does it ever flare up again while on the enzymes?

I did some searching and reading on the site about "accidents" and was relieved to know that it isn't unusual.
She hasn't had any during the day in the house ...however 4 times now we have woken up to a very large wet spot on the bed.
It isn't really an accident but more so "leaking". I managed to collect a sample to have her checked for UTI's, sugar levels , etc ...it all came back negative. The Vet indicated there was a medication she could go on to prevent this but I am hoping it will pass as her body gets used to what's going on now....and I do not want her to go on any other meds at this point. One thing at a time!

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Madelon
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by Madelon » 01 Jul 2020, 19:30

Hi Tara welcome to our EPI family. Here is a link to the dosing information for B12 https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/research/ ... on/#dosing. Do you know what the B12 level was when you were diagnosed? Please know that supplementing is for life with these dogs but you have to find the right dose of B12 to keep their level where it needs to be - on the high side of normal 600+.

With regard to the Tylan, we recommend slowly weaning off after 45 days - in some cases where the Tylan is stopped cold turkey there will be a relapse of SID. And yes, SID can flare up at any time - the best you can do is try to find the right balance of food, enzymes and B12 to keep it from flaring up.

Be sure to keep a detailed journal of everything you give and the resulting poo so you know what works and what doesn't. And we are doing the happy poop dance for you :). Whenever my boy has a really good poop I always praise him and then I'm like he has no clue what I'm doing and how silly is it to praise him for a good poop - but it's what we do :)
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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sierra2020
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by sierra2020 » 01 Jul 2020, 22:28

Hi to All,

We are trying to sort out enzyme dosing as well so thanks for answering. We have a Very recent diagnosis of borderline EPI case. We were prescribed Pank-aid as well by our vet, and again, the recommended dosage is 1tsp per meal. We plan on using enzyme diane 8x and have some on order. Our vet was pretty clear that Pank aid is something he regularly stocks here in Sudbury, Ontario Canada. I will question availability next time we go in for a b12 injection.
Cheers

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TsBs
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Pet name: Katniss Everdeen
My name: Tara

Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by TsBs » 02 Jul 2020, 19:14

These were her diagnosis #'s on June 2nd:

TLI was <1
B12 was 143
Folate was 54.5

.... good, bad or disasterous?
How often do you get them retested?

I am currently giving her .1ml by injection once a week...the Vet said to drop it to once a month after 6 weeks?

I will call tomorrow and order some more Tylan then ASAP.
What do you recommend the weaning dose/process be?

Thank you so much .... there is so much I need to learn and understand to deal with this....

Tara

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jilbert57
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by jilbert57 » 02 Jul 2020, 21:36

Hi Tara, no need to retest the Tli, once your dog is diagnosed with this test the results will not increase. The B12 and Folate will change. Your pups B12 is low, EPI pups need a B12 in the upper high range of 600. Good on doing the injections weekly. There is also an oral supplement B12 with Intrinsic factor you can give to supplement.
The Tylan is dosed 2 times a day.

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Shirl D.
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Re: Amount of Enzymes

Post by Shirl D. » 02 Jul 2020, 22:22

Jill is right...no need to retest the TLI, as she will always be EPI, so there's no point. Your vet has recommended the correct protocol for B12 injections...once a week for 6 weeks, then once a month. We know that EPI dogs usually need supplementation for life. We used to recommend retesting 30 days after the first monthly injection to see what the dog's B12 level is with one injection a month. Then we could tell if that should be enough or not, and if so, the dog would stay on one injection a month. That's still a solid recommendation. But, we also now have B12 pills with intrinsic factor that work well for our dogs, too. Some people don't bother retesting, they just start giving the pills regularly. It's really best practice to retest and see the actual levels, but that can become costly. The link Jill posted has good information about the B12 and the product with intrinsic factor that many of us use. Many people can tell when a dog's B12 level is low, based on behavioral changes. Low B12 can cause loss of appetite, vomiting, weight loss, SID, lethargy, loose stool, and behavior changes like crankiness or fear.
Regarding weaning off tylan, after 45 days, drop to one dose a day to start. If things stay fine, you can cut back more.

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