Enzymes help for puppy

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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C.U.pup
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Posts: 27
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Dash
My name: Leonard

Enzymes help for puppy

Post by C.U.pup » 11 Aug 2018, 04:10

Hi
I'm looking into different products on the advice from my veterinarian as my puppy is looking to have e.i.p ( awaiting results ) and were looking for a powder that has quite a high concentrate as he vet feels what he currently is taking is not high enough he on Amyladol tablets half twice a day
( recommended by a professor in GI disorders )
which has made some improvements but not enough to make him diarrhoea free very up and down.
he weighs 1.2 kg
Not sure what the condition entails or if it's curable in time :?: but trying to get him stable at the moment and gain some weight any help is greatly received
Leonard

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jilbert57
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Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by jilbert57 » 11 Aug 2018, 10:50

I see you are from the UK?. There are folks here from UK that can help you. I looked up the product but it is in units I don't know. I think Lypex is used and Panzym but others should chime in. Welcome to the forum while you await the results.
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Miss Maddie Moo
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Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 11 Aug 2018, 13:03

Hello i am from the Uk we used Panzym , and prior to that Lypex your pup is very small what bred is it ? I have never heard of the enzyme you are using which professor of GI advised it.
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
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C.U.pup
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Posts: 27
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Dash
My name: Leonard

Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by C.U.pup » 11 Aug 2018, 14:16

Thank u I'll pass them both on to his vet's and see if there more appropriate then the 1 he is using
Dash is a maltese cross mix not sure what with

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Olesia711
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Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by Olesia711 » 11 Aug 2018, 15:53

Hi Leonard,

It looks like the Amyladol tablets are a Polish product and i am not having much luck translating it to see what type of enzymes are in it nor what the ratio/potency of the enzymes are (both are important)

If you can look at the label and type what it says..... i am trying to determine if these pills are made from pig pancreas (correct enzymes) or plant enzymes (incorrect enzymes) if they are the right potency

So.... if you can let me know what the potency is of each enzymes, that would be helpful.

The reason why i am asking is because either these are not the right enzymes.... OR..... the enzymes are correct, but it looks like they are not working because the loose stools that you are seeing are from a secondary condition of EPI called SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which prebiotics can be tried to see if they can get the gut flora imbalance in better shape... BUT... if this doesn't work, then your vet will have to resort to antibiotics.... and the #1 recommended antibiotic today is Tylan.... not Metronidazole like they used to give. Metronidazole/Flagyl does not always work and there can bad adverse effects... whereas the Tylan made by Elanco- -originally for chickens, pigs and bees but works very well on dogs, puppies and cats!(Tylosin Tartrate 100 grams soluble powder)... Anyway... SID looks just like EPI does.... so i am trying to help figure out what is going on............ PLEASE share with your vet anything that we recommend.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
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Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by Madelon » 11 Aug 2018, 16:32

Hi and welcome to our EPI family! You are in goods hands with our UK members and Olesia. Your tiny little one sounds adorable - hope you can post a picture here :) . One of the benefits of EPI is getting to see all of the amazing dogs and cats and how gorgeous they are!

Keep a log of everything you give and everything that comes out (poop) so you will know what is working and what isn't.

Hang in there - we are all in this together!
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

C.U.pup
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Posts: 27
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Dash
My name: Leonard

Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by C.U.pup » 12 Aug 2018, 08:32

Wow so definitely a lot to think about then :?
Thank u all for such a warm welcome :P
I managed to get this of the website i purchased them from doesn't specify whether they enzymes or plant based or animal here is what's listed on the website

Direction for use:
Cats and small dogs - 1 tablet / day
Medium sized dogs - 2 tablets / day
Large dogs - 3 tablets / day
Recommended time of supplementation: from 3 to 12 weeks.
- long-term supplementation might be considered if necessary.
1 tablet contains:
1k-Enzymes:

Amylase 13 400 Ph.Eur.u.

Lipase 9 200 Ph.Eur.u. 

Proteases 960 Ph.Eur.u.


Composition:
maltodextrin, magnesium stearate
Analytical constituents:
Crude protein 0,5%, Crude fibre 0,2%, Oils and crude fats 0%, Crude ash 35,4%, Calcium 0%, Phosphorus 0%, Sodium 0%

Dash is totally cute thank u and his on antibiotics currently was on (stromly 2) for 12 days, now he in on the Metronidazole 250mg for the last 24 day and still got 9 day course to take .
He's been on steroids twice a day for several weeks also for query IBD , had faecal analysis test which was negative tried quite a few different varieties of food , which have failed with an explosive affect and made him bleed , just one long on going nightmare you would not believe the amount that comes out this little guy.

Rudysmom

Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by Rudysmom » 12 Aug 2018, 12:52

Hello :) I'm not much help here as I'm new to EPI myself! But you will get lots of advice and support from everyone on this board.

I hear you on living a nightmare and I can only imagine how scary it must be with such a wee mite. It was scary enough with my big guy! I hope you get some balance soon!

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Olesia711
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Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Aug 2018, 13:35

Hi Leonard,

Thank you for posting that information..... please share with your vet what i am gong to suggest next, as i think maybe you only have to make 1 or 2 adjustments and you probably will see an improvement.

#1 ENZYME DOSE: First... to understand the dose recommendation, this product is using a European Pharmacopeal measurement.
Your vet will know the conversion, but for us lay people, we have to look it up :)
Anyway... i already have enzyme conversion tables on this website on this page.. feel free to check it out:
https://epi4dogs.com/enzyme-conversion/

Conversion from FIP/PhEur units to USP units as follows:

for lipase, 1 FIP/PhEur unit = 1 USP unit;
for amylase, 1 FIP/PhEur unit = 4.15 USP units;
for protease, 1 FIP/PhEur unit = 62.5 USP units

for lipase, 1BP/PhEur unit = 1 USP unit;
for amylase, 1 BP/PhEur unit = 4.15 USP units;
for protease, 1 BP/PhEur unit = 62.5 USP units

information taken from : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462091/ and they got THEIR information from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... -2-115-b33 Also….. VERY IMPORTANT….. is that the enzyme potency amount required also depends on how the product is compounded and what format it is manufactured in. The type of enzyme product determines how quickly it will be used in the digestive system so consequently this determines how potent it needs to be.


SO... what you need to do is NOT go by the enzyme dosing instructions on the bottle which are by weight,, but rather give the appropriate dose of enzymes according to how much food you are giving you pup.

Not that the amylase or protease enzymes are not important- they are, actually more then what they previously thought BUT for now.... decide how much enzyme to give based on the Lipase PhEur units.

VERY IMPORTANT..... before following the below instructions.... make sure that no where on the bottle does it say "enteric coated" as this means you are dealing with a totally different product and the dosing instructions are completely different.-_Althoug based on the Lipase 9,000 PhEur unit listed... i am pretty confident that this is not an enteric coated product :)... just double check ..okay?!

If not enteric coated capsules.....You need to give a MINIMUM of:
33,600 to 71,400 USP of Lipase (needed to digest fats and oils)
280,000 to 495,000 USP of Protease (needed to digest proteins)
280,000 to 495,000 USP of Amylase needed to digest carbohydrates)

So based on the above information... for 1 cup of food ... you need to crush 6 pills, add a little room temperature water, mix in the food and let sit for 20 minutes, then serve.

For example, if you are feeding your puppy 1/2 cup of food.... then crush 3 pills, add a little room temperature water, mix in the food and let sit for 20 minutes then serve.

Please show this to your vet...if he agrees, then try this for a few days... hopefully you will see improvement in the stools and this might have been the problem... not a high enough potency of enzymes has been given. If the above does not improve things dramatically.... then please also show your vet the below suggestion:

#2 TYLAN vs. METRONIDAZOLE: if you see no improvement with this, then the next possible cause is SID that is not being addressed with the Metronidazole. This is common. We have seen this happen repeatedly. Some of veterinarian researchers even stopped using Metro (Flagyl) for this and just prescribe Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate 100 grams) antibiotic soluble powder. Elanco manufacturers it... The Bristol Univ in the UK now recommends it too for SID.... SO... if no resolution with the increase in the enzymes, Please ask your vet to try and get some Tylan powder... it is made for chickens, pigs and honey bees.... although it may not be as easy to get as Metronidazole, it is attainable in the UK. And then stop the Metro and start the Tylan.
(Personal story: my dog when first diagnosed with EPI was given proper enzymes & proper food and Metronidazole.... we did NOT see any improvement at all until after 2 weeks, my vet stopped the Metronidazole and prescribed Tylan instead- -the next day we saw perfectly formed stools!!)

Actually, one of the EPI researchers did a seminar last fall with EPi4Dogs to a bunch of vets and Dr. Patrick Barko did a WONDERFUL presentation that helps explain all this.... that you might want to show your vet (as one vet to another) :)

It is on the EPI Seminar page: https://epi4dogs.com/epi-seminar/ .. Dr. Barko's presentation is 44 slides... so once you click on the presentation, all you have to do is hit the little down arrow in the bottom left side of that presentation window to flip the pages. Good reading and excellent explanations!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

C.U.pup
Member
Posts: 27
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Dash
My name: Leonard

Re: Enzymes help for puppy

Post by C.U.pup » 13 Aug 2018, 00:01

Wow Olesia that is an information overload my head is spinning :shock:
But it all most gratefully received thank u

Sounds like Dash as most definitely been under dosed on the enzyme intakes, didn't realise it had to be directly on the food either I have been giving him half twice a day with a 12-hour gap as recommended .

Dash is eating a wet food diet around 50g a meal so should I give him three tablets twice a day now it onto his wet food ?

I will pass on the info to his vets all being well his results will be back this week

thanks again for everybody's support and help there a lot to get your head around, but looks like it's something that is achievable in time from what i seen on the website ...

Ruby he sure is a massive worry ,did u manage to sort your pup out too

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